question regarding tone...tubes, old amps etc....

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE MTS. I really do. I tell everyone about it, I obsess over my tone and endlessly tweak the possibilities it allows me. I haven't enjoyed such good tone since , well my other amp. Its a '65 Gibson Mercury used with a 2 x 12 Avatar with 1 v30 and one anniversary G12H

Which brings me to the reason for this post.

Maybe it's my speaker, a Reeves Fane close, or maybe it's that its a 1 x 12 combo but, yesterday when I played my Mercury with the band instead of the RM50 I experienced a fullness, an openness and responsiveness in that amp that I can't really obtain with the RM50 in it's current form.

I have no idea why, and I really don't notice it until I dial in the Mercury just so.

Is the Rm50 by design just a tighter, more sterile sounding power section, or is my Fane and 1 x 12 coloring the sound in a certain way? I've used the combo with the avatar and had improved sound, but the responsiveness of the old amp is just so, something......

any experience with this phenomenon? can anyone help me with suggestions t improving the Rm50?, I've considered turning it into a head and just using the cab...then baffling the combo into a Wave type cab, or perhaps opening the back, or building or modifying another 2 x 12 cab to use with it

I want to use my MTS rig most of the time but I want it to be full of breathing, blooming life.

What can I do

I also have a combo, and a head both 50's. The cab sounds so much fuller than the punchy and somewhat beaming combo. Why don't you plug the combo into the cab and see how that sounds. I'll bet that it sounds as good.

You could consider a Foglifter or MDA board...

yes, I have tried the cabinet with rm50, often. it helps to open up the sound but still lacks a real organic feel like the vintage amp. could be that's just how it goes with old/new. It is a non master amp with a very dynamic eq, huge range there.

i do have the foglifter installed, may try an MDA

I'm definitely going to make a head cab, then perhaps look for a speaker to pair this Reeves with. It does have a nice punch and good low and top end clarity. I may need some good old fashioned alnico to mix with it.

Still, I tried an old set of GE black plate 6L6 tonight, didn't change, made it a bit more harsh with my EL34 voiced mods.

seems I'm caught in a loop of speaker choices. I wonder how much of an improvement the Mercury mags would be, I've heard almost nothing

withmittens said:

yes, I have tried the cabinet with rm50, often. it helps to open up the sound but still lacks a real organic feel like the vintage amp. could be that's just how it goes with old/new. It is a non master amp with a very dynamic eq, huge range there.

i do have the foglifter installed, may try an MDA

I'm definitely going to make a head cab, then perhaps look for a speaker to pair this Reeves with. It does have a nice punch and good low and top end clarity. I may need some good old fashioned alnico to mix with it.

Still, I tried an old set of GE black plate 6L6 tonight, didn't change, made it a bit more harsh with my EL34 voiced mods.

seems I'm caught in a loop of speaker choices. I wonder how much of an improvement the Mercury mags would be, I've heard almost nothing

Click to expand...

FWIW, I found it Mercury Mag's to be an improvement...Albeit one I can surely live without....I think the power and response of the vintage amp is a nuance of the amp that you dig....To me , MTS captures many, but not all, nuances....The in your face power that other amps have is not always there live - but is always a great recording....Dialing them in properly makes a big difference as does maxing the master to its limits...
But unfortunately you have hit an area that seems to be limited by design more than anything else...It can be compensated for by using a compressor if that helps at all....Guessing you've tried that too....

tried a Boss CS-3 and the tube black finger. I've gotten away from compressors in favor of the sharp attack but the black finger does provide a nice warm boost but only volume can make it sing.

again, I'm not unhappy, just looking for that little bit of vintage magic in this rig. I'm just about to click on buy with a Creamback 65 to pair with this Reeves. it sounds woody and nice. thinking it;s where I should go......can;t stop......help.............

Lots of input, email me to discuss.

bought an empty 2 x 12 and a Creamback 65 after listening to clips and reading various forum posts about speakers, yet again...I love the open and woody sound of it and with the Reeves Fane, maybe, just maybe......

going to build a head cab this weekend and shuck the combo. This is the first combo I've had in years and I've been fighting with it to sound fuller but alas, it's a combo. I have hopes for the 2 x 12 to get me closer to my sound.

Rob, i sent you an email, interested in what you have to say about it.

I think, a Randall is a Randall, an old Gibson is just that. I'll need to deal with it. I've played other amps that haven't gotten me half as close to bliss as the Rm50, a Matchless for one, an older JCM800 for another.

just need to open up the sound some.

withmittens said:

I think, a Randall is a Randall, an old Gibson is just that. I'll need to deal with it. I've played other amps that haven't gotten me half as close to bliss as the Rm50, a Matchless for one, an older JCM800 for another.

Click to expand...

I think that's the issue. Randall's power amp is a modern power amp built with the heavys in mind. The Egnater amps are supposedly tweaked more to the vintage side. I think you're best bet is an RM4/M4 and picking a more traditional, classic power amp.

A JCM800 needs tons of volume to open it up and fatten it up and can benefit from running the treble a little lower as well. Tons of treble in that circuit.

I often wonder what changing the transformers in these amps would really do. Will it make THAT much of a difference?

speed2dirt said:

withmittens said:

I think, a Randall is a Randall, an old Gibson is just that. I'll need to deal with it. I've played other amps that haven't gotten me half as close to bliss as the Rm50, a Matchless for one, an older JCM800 for another.

Click to expand...

I think that's the issue. Randall's power amp is a modern power amp built with the heavys in mind. The Egnater amps are supposedly tweaked more to the vintage side. I think you're best bet is an RM4/M4 and picking a more traditional, classic power amp.

Click to expand...

what would you say was a more vintage voiced power amp? def. not VHT or Mesa. Rivera?

I plan to build an RM4 rig as soon as money presents itself for it. I feel the RM50 amp opens up too, at blazing volume. I know everyone has told me I'm mistaken but i really think a mod to the rectifier would help, don;t know exactly what that would be but more akin to a tube type. not being a circuit guy I can;t imagine the limitations but every amp I've played with a tube rectifier seems to suit me

Kapo_Polenton said:

I often wonder what changing the transformers in these amps would really do. Will it make THAT much of a difference?

Click to expand...

Yes, it will. The stock Chuang Meei transformers are the same Taiwanese garbage that companies like Fender and Peavey use in their low budget overseas models. We are talking their amps in the $200-300 range. Total trash.

I just received the last piece of the puzzle for a project 6 months in the making. Look for a major announcement this week.

I have two RM100LBs side by side, one with MM and one stock along with two MOD50s and an RM50....

Whether the stock iron sounds any better or worse than upgraded is debatable but you have to figure that I'm not taking the MV past 10 o'clock nor gigging at all..just making noises for fun.

I'd take my usage of the amp into consideration before spending $400 on new iron......YMMV

JKD said:

I have two RM100LBs side by side, one with MM and one stock along with two MOD50s and an RM50....

Whether the stock iron sounds any better or worse than upgraded is debatable but you have to figure that I'm not taking the MV past 10 o'clock nor gigging at all..just making noises for fun.

I'd take my usage of the amp into consideration before spending $400 on new iron......YMMV

Click to expand...

you seem to favor the high gain sounds by reading your sig. I wonder if the subtle differences in trannies may be more noticeable with less gain, possibly not. perhaps a thing you either feel or don't. (must be a tranny joke in there somewhere)

anyway, good to know you don;t notice much difference. I think 400 dollars in iron is the last thing I will do

I wasn't going to post here, but the discussion grew and I think posting my email to David will be of benefit to a few folks. Here's what I sent him this morning:

I deal with players of every walk of life and see hundreds of different amps across my bench every year. I have noticed a few generalizations that seem universal, particularly after lengthy conversations with others in my profession. It's fairly safe to say the following:

1: The internet has made everyone with a computer an "expert".

2: These experts share a lot of advice on the internet. A lot of it is bad. A lot of it is of biased opinion for various reasons.

3: People will always look for the most obvious visual difference to them based on their understanding of a subject and form opinions on them. The right answer is not always that obvious nor easy to measurably test.

As guitarists, we tend to often buy into forum hype and jump all over whatever he who screams the loudest happens to be yelling about at that moment. It's clearly the most amazing thing ever so I have to have it, right? Well....maybe you do. The reality of the situation is you will never know unless you try it for yourself. I see this time and again at every amp show I attend or every time I sit with a customer in my shop. You might have your heart set on something but the right answer for you is either something else or something of a custom nature to suit the individual.

There is no be-all-end-all amp, tube, speaker, cab, module, etc. You have to try things out and make an informed opinion based on that experience. It's perfectly okay to not like something, but learn from that and use the info to figure out what will suit you better. This is the approach I have always used for my Base Mods. It has NOTHING to do with the parts used or how much/little I do to a module. It's about listening to the players requests and complaints and making those adjectives a reality. Ironically, these customers are often the most happy.

There are no perfect speakers. They are all different and environmental factors will change the way they sound over time, for better or worse. The enclosure you mount it in has everything to do with how that speaker sounds. The material the cab is built of, the design and the dimensions are all just as important as the type of design (closed, open back, etc). Amps will also pair differently with these speakers and enclosures, so the variables are many. It's not easy to make a "perfect storm" scenario where they all come together just right. When it happens, the difference can be life-changing. For example, the MTS rig I bench test on daily impresses most who come by the shop, particularly when they compare it to their own rigs. The "best" speaker out there can (and will) sound terrible when it's in the wrong enclosure. Just ask Jace about the two cabs we used in LA for the 2013 Show last Fall and how that drove him to completely change his rig up.

To address the rectifier thing, 99% of guitarists think the difference is strictly just a result of using a tube vs diodes. This couldn't be farther from the truth. When guys tend to have a preference one way or the other, what they REALLY want is the power supply to be tuned differently. Just like the preamp modules, tuning a power section is an art unto itself. The design and values used here make ALL the difference in the behavior of the power amp. You can make a tube or diodes much more like each other if you have the know-how.

Finally, I'll address the transformers. Your amp starts and end with them. The power transformer is like a heart, pumping the electricity through the "veins" of your amp. This is where the feel and response happens. As you ask more of the amp, it has to push the PT harder. This is just like running a race for your circulatory system. The output transformer is like the lungs. This is where the tonal benefits happen. This is the component that takes all of the hard work your amp has done sculpting your tone and mates it to the real world via a speaker(s). If it's not an ideal match for the job at hand, it's not going to be able to sing well enough. Try singing your best after a sprint while you're winded.

Will you see a huge improvement playing by yourself at low levels in your bedroom? Probably not. Some clarity and a bit of a difference in feel. Turn up to jam with a band and your amp will live and breathe like never before. Is it worth it? Maybe, depending on your needs as a player. This is where the uniqueness of the individual matters and where internet "group-think" is such a slippery slope. If working with hundreds of players from around the globe has taught me nothing else it just how different you all are.

Hope that helps!
Rob

Rob, hurry up with the big announcement already.. if you can provide that last 10% and push these amps over the edge, we want to hear about it.

Jaded Faith"what they REALLY want is the power supply to be tuned differently. Just like the preamp modules said:

I'm not sure if this is a lead up to the transformer section of this post, meaning that your "tuning" is swapping out the transformers, or if there are various other changes you have proven to benefit one type or another desired ourcome. if you are suggesting that you have tweaked the Randall's Power circuity to get different results I would be interested to know what kinds of things have resulted in good things.[/color]

Finally, I'll address the transformers.

I can't say that I'm going to jump into a tranny swap (someone really needs to perfect this joke) but I would also be interested in knowing the cost of such a thing. also, are you talking about swapping only the OT? and does that OT differ from the one offered by Mercury Magnetics on their site?

Click to expand...

I've cut into Rob's quote with some specific questions on 2 parts of it, noted in blue....I hope it comes through that way

I agree we're all different and the internet has produced a lot of information and made it available to everyone, allowing for a crazy amount of discussion, misinformation, and really constructive gains in the understanding of various components available and how they relate to tone; all of which I think is a good thing in terms of blowing a subject wide open. Just as there is no end all-be all amp, speaker, component, there is no end all be all answer to the question in any form, except trying things, which of course we all seem to do all the time.

I think it's a bit unclear what services you are proposing in your post (I understand the proverbial parts of the post, seems like good common sense that all of us must know by now)....... Is it tuning the power section with various changes to taste, is it swapping the OT, is it both? and what kind of cost are we talking about?

One thing I do know is that all of us as players probably have a really clear grasp of our tone and what we want out of it. I think that's what drives our purchases and experiments.

FWIW, I did take the back off the combo last night, it made a nice little difference. I'm also waiting for that Creamback to pair with this Reeves, I'll probably make a semi open back for the new cab I bought.

thanks Rob, for the thoughtful response

I am actually on a live sound gig at the moment and have to rush to the studio to mix a client session right after this. If time permits, I will try to compile an announcement between jobs. Otherwise look for something tomorrow morning.

All good, I just read what I wrote and it comes across like i'm an @$$hole lol... i meant it in a fun spirited way! but that said we're holding you to it! :wink:

Kapo_Polenton said:

All good, I just read what I wrote and it comes across like i'm an @$$hole lol... i meant it in a fun spirited way! but that said we're holding you to it! :wink:

Click to expand...

No worries at all sir, I didn't take it as negativity at all. Trust me, I can't wait to announce it and get the space in my shop back! This is a project 6 months in the making, mostly due to manufacturing delays.