RM-50 Parallel FX Loop Levels?

I am running an old analog Boss DM-2 Delay and a digital Digitech Hardwire RV-7 Reverb pedal in the parallel FX loop on my Randall RM-50. I have the effects level maxed out on both pedals so that they are only sending the wet effected signal back into the amp. I set the FX Mix on the font of the amp to about noon and expected to hear a 50-50 Wet to dry mix, but I could barely hear the delay or the reverb. I had to set the amp FX Mix knob at around 1:00-2:00 O'Clock to hear the effects. Is this normal? I thought that setting the amp's FX Mix knob at noon would equal a 50-50 wet dry mix, as long as the pedals were set to fully wet?

When I run these same effects into the front of the amp, I get a 50-50 wet dry mix when the FX level on both pedals is set to noon, so I dont think there is a problem with the pedals.

I usually only run the wet signal at about 35% when using reverb and delay; yet I need to set the FX mix knob on the amp above noon to achieve this level.

Any ideas as to what is going on would be greatly appreciated?

The FX loop runs at line level, not instrument level. So it won't work with your pedals properly. You need a device like this to change the levels properly for you.
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/LLS2

Another tip.
Use the series loop instead and set your mix levels on the pedals.
Use a small cable and plug the parallel send in to the parallel return.
This adds an extra tube gain stage. Use the Parallel loop mix knob on the front to dial as much of this in to your tone as you like. Most just turn it up all the way and leave it.

You should be ok with the Hardwire pedal in the series loop, they worked pretty good for me with an RM50 when I had them. Not sure about the DM-2...the loop might be a little hot for that one!

Your loop send rcv jacks dirty on your amp? Have any deoxit?

Just my opinion but stick with the P Loop... Don't wanna start an argument w the 2 other guys that said use the series loop though LoL

The loops on these amps can be challenging, but once you figure them out they can be managed.

I did consider that whole instrument level vs. line level issue, but neither pedal distorts in the loop. I thought that if the pedal did not have enough headroom to hanlde line level, then the effect would be distorted?

I was looking at that EBTech line level shifter. Has anybody used one? How does it compare to the ones Rob and Bruce make? Does anubody make a tube driven version of a line level shifter?

I will also try each pedal individually when I get a chance and see if I can narrow it down to only one of the two pedals.

It's not only getting the right level TO the pedal, but getting the proper level FROM the pedal back to the amp return. It has to be boosted back up. That's why you don't get enough FX level.
I'd buy anything from Rob or Bruce before any other product. But I've heard good things about the Ebtech. I've never needed one as I use line level FX.

Ricey said:

I did consider that whole instrument level vs. line level issue, but neither pedal distorts in the loop. I thought that if the pedal did not have enough headroom to hanlde line level, then the effect would be distorted?

Click to expand...

Correct

Ricey said:

I was looking at that EBTech line level shifter. Has anybody used one? How does it compare to the ones Rob and Bruce make?

Click to expand...

The one Bruce made is great, and my guess is Rob's is pretty good too. Both of those are going to be hard to find though. The EBTech is OK, but not as good as the one that Bruce made.

I don't think you need one of those from the sound of it tho Ricey. Unless your jacks are dirty, and when you clean them the signal is boosted and you have distortion. Otherwise not sure why you'd need one.

..and noon on the dial might not be 50/50. Are you not able to get the mix you want? Rule#1 of great tone, ignore the knobs

I am not getting any distortion if the wet signal, but I do have to set the FX mix knob on the amp to around 2:00 to get a good wet-dry mix.It does sound good though! I have the level knobs on the effects set to 100% wet. I assumed that whatever level goes into the effects is what comes out of them, but is it possible, like some are saying, that the level coming out of the effects could be reduced because they were designed to be placed in front of the amp and not in the loop? I will also try spraying the jacks with contact cleaner.

I'm not 100% sure, but I'm gonna guess that my effects knob is close to 2 oclock as well.

If it bugs you that much... set the knob where it sounds good, then take it off and reinstall it so it's at noon

Guys, it is all about tone. Knob settings don't matter. If the FX signal sounds good and you're happy with your sound just play and enjoy!

But the technical issue is "gain structure." You're having to boost the mix signal because signal coming to the loop return is low. Boosting the mix level means boosting noise. Converting the level from a -10 to a +4 before it feeds the loop return provides a quiet, strong signal. But again, if you're not getting too much noise in your signal.....who cares?

As to the series vs. the parallel; obviously the benefit of the parallel loop is that your main tone isn't touched and you're blending the FX sound with your main tone. For me, the benefit of jumping that parallel loop with a short cable instead and simply mixing that extra tube gain stage with that mix knob and using the series loop sounds better. It really adds balls to the sound!
Now that being said, I'm using a line level TC Nova System FX system with complete input and output level controls. The down side is that my entire signal is converted to digital and then back to analog in that process. Luckily the converters sound pretty good. So, yes this is a compromise, but for my system this sounds better to me. In fact I took it a step further and stopped using the series loop and simply use the line output of my RM4 to feed the TC and then take the output of the TC in to the power amp input. This sounded WAY better than using the series loop which now just connected to my ISP Decimator for noise reduction. It's a better gain structure with less noise and less tone suck.