Stock 1086 - need more gain and low end grunt??

Now that I've had a chance to mess around with my setup for a little while (RM100, KH1, 1086, Carvin 4x12 with Celestion G12T-100's), no efx or anything, I love the KH1 - very nice clean, exactly what I like. But the 1086 seems to be lacking in gain and low end grunt. I like a pretty bassy/chuggy tone (love the G12T-100's for the low end). Issue is the same playing through my Model 6 (JB, Duckbucker, little '59 - E std), '90 Soloist PRO (SH5 Custom, little '59 neck - Eb), and '93 USA Soloist Custom (Dimarzio SD, SDS-1 neck - E std). All have 9-42's. If I'm playing something A string or above, open or muting, it's nice with a good chug when I'm muting. But muting open E has no grunt, literally like as if I turn the gain and bass down to 2 everytime I hit that string. I've never really had this problem before. Everything from low mids up sounds great. The KH1 has tons of bass on hand but the 1086 seems to fall off under an A note. I listened to a bunch of the clips from here with stock 1086's and mine with the gain dimed and boost on, I'm not even close to the clips. It has a Mesa 12ax7 in V1 and a JJ in V2. I tried a "high gain" JJ, and EH, and a Sovtek in V1 and not much (if any) difference in the amout of gain. Other than sending it off for a mod, anything I can try? Thoughts - suggestions?
Thanks (and sorry for the novel.. hope it makes sense)

BTW - Settings I have it at are (o'clock) Gain-3, Bass-3, Mid-11, Treble-3, Level-10, Master-10, Presence-2, Density-3.

It is a very "tight" module, which means it has less bass let through before the gain stages.
This also affects overall bass response.

You've tried a lot of tubes I see. You can check out EHX or Tung Sols, and maybe even Shuguang (Chinese)
These should bring in a bit more bass.
But if your freqs are being filtered out by the bass cap.. than I don't think that's not going to help much.
Doing a bass cap mod is pretty simple, it only involves replacing 1 cap (or placing one in parallell with it depending on what you want to achieve).

Bit of constructive criticism: writing a novel is no problem, but breaking it up in paragraphs makes it much more readable (IMO that is)

The 1086 is a frustrating and dissappointing module. Cool switches, but in the end, the Marshally side is the best tone- but it still is not as good as the stock SL+. The scoop side is useless. The half gain sound is not as good as the Plexi module....and nowhere near enough gain.

On a positive note, it is the basis for some cool modifications. I say
1087, 1666 or get rid of it.

I agree with Ray in that it is a little of a disappointment. The non scooped (Marshally side) is the best. The scoop switch was worthless, unless you want instant mud.

I thought it had plenty of gain with the boost switch on. However I like my SL+ gain set at about 2 o'clock for a reference. YMMV. The bass seemed fine to me, but then I am using 10-52 guage strings and I tune down to E flat. Some have suggested that the 1086 really responds better to drop tunings D, C#, C, etc. That's not my style though, at some point I have to let the bass have it's area.

Hamner1 said:

I agree with Ray in that it is a little of a disappointment. The non scooped (Marshally side) is the best. The scoop switch was worthless, unless you want instant mud.

I thought it had plenty of gain with the boost switch on. However I like my SL+ gain set at about 2 o'clock for a reference. YMMV. The bass seemed fine to me, but then I am using 10-52 guage strings and I tune down to E flat. Some have suggested that the 1086 really responds better to drop tunings D, C#, C, etc. That's not my style though, at some point I have to let the bass have it's area.

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You're right.
The 1086 really does respond well to downtuning compared to other stock modules.
In normal tuning my 1086 is completely meh compared to the XTC, down in C# or C it suddenly smokes it!

That said, the Salvado whoops both modules in any tuning
But that also has to do with the fact that it had a tightness switch, allowing tweaking to the situation..

I don't play downtuned further then drop-D (except for jamming along to stuff), so the 1086 is going out for modding now

Anthony from Salvation was kind enough to share a gain mod for the 1086. It seems like a pretty easy mod. Check it out http://mtsforum.grailtone.com/viewtopic.php?t=9768&highlight=1086+gain+mod

guitarzan said:

Anthony from Salvation was kind enough to share a gain mod for the 1086. It seems like a pretty easy mod. Check it out http://mtsforum.grailtone.com/viewtopic.php?t=9768&highlight=1086+gain+mod

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Ah yes, I forgot about that.

I tried that, definitly upped the gain a lot.

For me in normal tuning it wasn't of much use.
But seeing as downtuning decreases the gain (or at least, the perception of gain) I can see it being great for you.

hi warlok

are you interested in DIY mods or are you looking for other solutions?

I really only stay in E-std, Eb, or drop D so being good for drop tunings doesn't help much.

Looking at the bass cap mod, The cap in C3 is .001uf (P102J) which should be the tightest, that sound right? Maybe changing that will get me in the ballpark. somewhere in the middle, .0022uf?

And I saw that gain mod from Salvation after I started this thread. Mojo - Are you saying it didn't do much in normal tunings?

Has anyone has done these 2 mods and could post results, that'd be helpful.

eedude - anything really. I can solder or try other suggestions if you got em..
Thanks fellas!!

Well, I played around a bit in different tunings and I'm really surprised how much better it sounds with low tunings. More perceived gain an lots of bass. Reading through the mod from grailtone, that makes sense, but I don't really detune. Hmmm.. Mod or trade??

I'd mod it. R16 and R7 both usually address gain issues. If there is no R7, then cutting it out might not help.... I've not seen the guts of a 1087

You can also widen the frequency response of the bass pot by finding the cap in the tone stack that goes to it and swapping it out for a nice high quality 47nF cap. Orange drop will be clear with some spongier bass, SoZo will be tighter, Red Wima will be a bit dryer and tighter. There are lots of brands out there so pick one you think would work for you.

So far from what I've seen, going bigger on C3 (bass cap mod) and R16 (gain from the salvation suggestion) will probably help. There's nothing in R7. I'm wondering if I should change all the larger caps in there like C8, C9, C16, C17? How's the quality of what Randall uses stock? Would it make that much of a difference ya think? Here's a gutshot..

Just a quick update, didn't mod anything yet. But just like I see with every tube amp I've had, an EQ in the loop helps a ton. It's playable now and I can get lots more gain and low end. Set kind of in a V (scooped) and putting the mid on the module at about noon-1 is a pretty good crunchy, punchy sound. And really full.. but slightly scooped sound.

warlok said:

How's the quality of what Randall uses stock?

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very good.. there are some modules that have ceramic treble tone stack caps.. but that is the worst of it and that's not all that offensive. All the caps in that pic are very good quality.

They're pretty good, but like I said: There are affordable upgrades, and they alter the tone noticeably. In my opinion, upgraded caps add a lot more presence and depth to the sound.

So did my EQ.. Right now I'm going to collect up a stash of some parts to do some mods in the future. I'm actually liking the sound more and more every day I play it now with the EQ in the loop. Normally it's the other way around >> Excited at first note and tends to fall off..

warlok said:

I really only stay in E-std, Eb, or drop D so being good for drop tunings doesn't help much.

Looking at the bass cap mod, The cap in C3 is .001uf (P102J) which should be the tightest, that sound right? Maybe changing that will get me in the ballpark. somewhere in the middle, .0022uf?

And I saw that gain mod from Salvation after I started this thread. Mojo - Are you saying it didn't do much in normal tunings?

Has anyone has done these 2 mods and could post results, that'd be helpful.

eedude - anything really. I can solder or try other suggestions if you got em..
Thanks fellas!!

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No what I meant is: I didn't need more gain
But if you need more gain, go for it! It definitly works.
For me it was overkill.

I have a thread going on the JCF forum too for opinions cause some there have these as well. Honestly I wonder if there's 2 versions of the 1086, or something that goes bad in some of them..?? Almost every thread that mentions it has 1 of 2 things about it. Either "most versatile, tons of gain, very heavy and clear and articulate" or "no bottom end, low gain, doesn't do it for me". I listened to every clip I can find and they are mostly praising and do sound good with nice heavy gain and low end. But me and a bunch of others say exactly the opposite about ours. My PC's audio is an Echo Mia soundcard out to Event 20/20bas monitors so it's not like I'm using laptop speakers to review. Mine (and others) are just not even close...

warlok said:

I have a thread going on the JCF forum too for opinions cause some there have these as well. Honestly I wonder if there's 2 versions of the 1086, or something that goes bad in some of them..?? Almost every thread that mentions it has 1 of 2 things about it. Either "most versatile, tons of gain, very heavy and clear and articulate" or "no bottom end, low gain, doesn't do it for me". I listened to every clip I can find and they are mostly praising and do sound good with nice heavy gain and low end. But me and a bunch of others say exactly the opposite about ours. My PC's audio is an Echo Mia soundcard out to Event 20/20bas monitors so it's not like I'm using laptop speakers to review. Mine (and others) are just not even close...

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Maybe you can ask someone with one of the awesome ones to make a gutshot so we can compare?

It could be that they made changes.. but I'm sure that would be known right? Like the 800 modification on the SL+..