Mod + Poweramp = tone?!

Hi!

Another question for you more experienced MTS guys (I'm always late to the party..)

I found some A vs B clips of modded modules vs original.

Eg
http://mtsforum.grailtone.com/viewtopic.php?t=14797

And a youtube clip; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNgf8JswiKU

Even though it's really appreciated with these clips, they are both using a randall MTS amp as a power section.

Even though it might be blasphemy, I do like the originals much more. More presence and more "chugg" and perhaps a little more complex sounding. Is this due to an inferior (unmodded) Randall power section or is it the preamps that differ?

Has anyone tried to compare the modules vs original using the original power section (ie using the FX loop for the MTS preamp)???

Any such sound clips?

I should start by stating the Randall power sections are not at all inferior. They may not be DeYoung or Mercury Tranny's, but there is ample iron and they are tuned to accommodate a wide variety of tones from all the modules. A "middle of the road" if you will. Are there better options? Sure, but that doesn't make the Randall's inferior.

Manufacturers tune all aspects of their amps to work in harmony to accomplish a sonic goal. The preamp is tuned to work with the power section to paint the overall sound scape. But what works great in one pairing doesn't always play nice with another.

A fantastic example is my shop and studio. My current collection of amps includes a Mesa Mark V, Mesa Single Rectoverb, Mesa Stiletto, Traynor YBA-1, Soldano, Peavey 6505+, VHT Sig X, RM100KH, RM1250, RM50C, Egnater Renegade and Egnater M4 with RT2/50. The modular gear all sounds different from each other, but all very good. Some of those other amps have HIGHLY regarded power sections. The absolute best sounding of the bunch with the MTS gear? The RT 2/50 hands down. They are just made for each other and pair so well.

At the end of the day, you have to consider the whole picture with an amp from the input to the speakers they play through. There are many paths to great tone. Without looking at the big picture and accounting for all the variables it's impossible to truly capture the entire vibe. That's why I try to have a real amp to A/B against when creating a Replica mod as often as possible. Copying a schematic won't get you there alone.

Quick off-topic....Traynor amps ^ especially vintage = AWESOME

frodgemo said:

Quick off-topic....Traynor amps ^ especially vintage = AWESOME

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Beyond a doubt! I believe mine is a 1971 and it provides a better Plexi tone than most Plexi's I have had/played. Very overspec'ed and built like a tank. She just sings like you wouldn't believe. :wink:

Shouldn't used the word "inferior", somewhat insensible. This was in relation to far far more expensive boutique amps, I guess there is some difference in components there.

What I meant was since the modders go through a lot of work enhancing stock modules and still I hear a significant difference when A/B:d - could it be due to the randall power section would have had to be modded as well to get the perfect clone/result? From what I understand your answer would be yes?!

Basically I'm wondering if a more high end power section (eg an older vht:s like classic or 2150) together with some great modded modules (salvation, jaded faith etc) would take me closer to the originals, generally speaking?

ahem.. YBA-1 with Marshall mod on a switch please.

Thanks!

OR how about a "YB-a-Watt" YBA-1 w/ Marshall mod + Hiwatt dual channels.

Oh, and before anyone says Salvation already has a Hi-watt, well JF had an RR before the Rhoadie so it's all good playas! Lots of room in the market for hatchbacks!

blacksun said:

And a youtube clip; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNgf8JswiKU

Even though it's really appreciated with these clips, they are both using a randall MTS amp as a power section.

Even though it might be blasphemy, I do like the originals much more. More presence and more "chugg" and perhaps a little more complex sounding. Is this due to an inferior (unmodded) Randall power section or is it the preamps that differ?

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Funny,

the first link I found the 'solo' Salvation somewhat more clear
the mix was a draw

when I listen to the vid, the Mamba has more bark, while the real framus sounds like it would get lost in the mix much more easily

....Different opinions

I thought the Mamba cut better too, while keeping a very similar tonal quality IMO

I'm going to start a Vintage Traynor thread in the Other Gear section...

As for power amps, I wish tube rectification was a more common option, might help recreate some of the modules original tones better...?!

Kapo_Polenton said:

Oh, and before anyone says Salvation already has a Hi-watt, well JF had an RR before the Rhoadie so it's all good playas! Lots of room in the market for hatchbacks!

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It seems you are really new here. Look at the forum history and you' ll see that Salvation Mods already has first Soldano, Rockerverb,VHT, Krank, Vox/matchless, 5150, Mesa Mark....
If some other, later made modules are similar ( circuit wise or design-wise) it probably is not a coincidence
So, your comment above is really nonsense.

Anthony

Relax Anthony, I never said anything about the quality of your mods as I know they are top notch and they sound great. My comment was in anticipation of someone telling me there is already a module for A or B sound and that it comes from salvation. It doesn't matter who came first here as Fenders came before Marshall and Marshall before Soldano. Hence my statement that it doesn't matter who put out the first hatchback on the market, being "first" doesn't really matter. I'm sorry you saw that as an attack, it seems that people really get on the defensive around here.

when I listen to the vid, the Mamba has more bark, while the real framus sounds like it would get lost in the mix much more easily

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I thought the edge went to the real amp but again, I think maybe the presence and density knob could have come up on the RM100 slightly to really make the difference not all that noticable. The Mamba seems very close to me as well.

salvation said:

Kapo_Polenton said:

Oh, and before anyone says Salvation already has a Hi-watt, well JF had an RR before the Rhoadie so it's all good playas! Lots of room in the market for hatchbacks!

Click to expand...

It seems you are really new here. Look at the forum history and you' ll see that Salvation Mods already has first Soldano, Rockerverb,VHT, Krank, Vox/matchless, 5150, Mesa Mark....
If some other, later made modules are similar ( circuit wise or design-wise) it probably is not a coincidence
So, your comment above is really nonsense.

Anthony

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He actually has a very valid point (and creative way of expressing it) and should not be discredited.

You are being a bit pretentious here good sir and I think it needs to be called out. You were the fifth modder to enter this community (Gigmods, Jaded Faith Mods, Voodoo and Racksystems all preceded you) and many of us were offering our takes on these tones long before you were even a member on here. We just did it on a by-request system rather than from a pre-planned menu.

Were you the first to really dress them up with super-fancy plates and have a well constructed website to market you services properly? Absolutely, and you did a fantastic job getting that off the ground properly from the start. As someone who struggled immensely with that part of my business for years, I tip my hat to you.

If there are similarities between designs and circuits, did you ever stop to consider it may be due to the fact we may be emulating the same amps? I would wager not, based on your continued slander and poorly masked insinuations. We are both in the same line of business and have every right to produce whatever products we chose. As such, there are bound to be similarities both in product offerings and designs.

Everything has been done before in some shape or form. You and I both learned our craft from similar experiences and texts. Rest assured there is nothing being done in any of our products that hasn?t been done before as much as you would like to think to the contrary. It?s the differences in philosophies, style and tuning that make the products unique and give the community a variety of options to choose from (which contrary to your opinion is a great thing).

Aw, man!

Not to start a war, this comment was even more reason that I just sent another module to Rob. You're a great guy to do business with.

Though I don't have my Mark IV anymore, I'll be sure to post a clip of a song with re-amped guitar tracks of both the Mark IV and my coming Mark X, thanks to some DI tracks that were already re-amped with the Mark IV.

This comparison will be done in the same style as my Salvo vs. Bogner XTC clip. In fact, once my friend gets off his butt and orders a JF XTC, I can add that module to the XTC comparison clips.

To stay on topic, I've tried it through the bogner power section, and while there is a difference, it wasn't enough to justify skipping the Randall section. Earlier I raved about the differences, but I failed to realize that the presence control on the bogner is still active when going into the fx return. It was at noon, and once turned down, sounded VERY similar to the Randall. The differences were mainly in feel, as the Randall was running class ab, and the bogner class a.

Rob for President??? Too bad I live in Canada. :?

Jaded Faith said:

You were the fifth modder to enter this community (Gigmods, Jaded Faith Mods, Voodoo and Racksystems all preceded you) and many of us were offering our takes on these tones long before you were even a member on here. We just did it on a by-request system rather than from a pre-planned menu.

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It actually is not true. Yes, there were modders these days, who tuned stock modules , by changing a few components to sound better.
http://www.grailtone.com/guitar-tone-articles/randall-modules-modifications.html

But nobody offered modules completely based on real amps, before 12/2008 and Salvation Soldano.
http://mtsforum.grailtone.com/viewtopic.php?p=34339

Jaded Faith said:

Were you the first to really dress them up with super-fancy plates and have a well constructed website to market you services properly? Absolutely, and you did a fantastic job getting that off the ground properly from the start. As someone who struggled immensely with that part of my business for years, I tip my hat to you.

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Glad to hear that I have been providing such a inspiration for you.

Anthony
SALVATION MODS

Jaded Faith said:

It?s the differences in philosophies, style and tuning that make the products unique and give the community a variety of options to choose from (which contrary to your opinion is a great thing).

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I don't really understand where this last comment comes from. I have never heard or noticed anything of the kind on this forum or in personal conversation with Anthony. Different flavours and all that is fine. Of course we try to make things the best we can and are proud of that.. as undoubtebly you are too of your products.

wesarvin said:

Not to start a war, this comment was even more reason that I just sent another module to Rob. You're a great guy to do business with.

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This is totally unrelated IMO. If I have an argument with someone and I defend myself am I then suddenly a better designer? :?
I'm not trying to start a war either but I've seen these type of comments before and they are very alien to me.

Anthony, I have never tried any of your mods but I am open to them. I must say that in reading your posts, you tend to get defensive about things when I don't see you getting attacked. I have met a lot of truly great musicians in my day. Some were humble and some were arrogant about their gift. I kind of gravitate toward the humble ones who are in awe of their gift.
rick

I have nothing but respect for our modding community, so I don't want to get in the middle of this. However, some things to consider and factor is that Anthony is not a native English speaker, so there is definitely a language barrier to consider when you start attempting to interpret the emotions and attitudes behind the words on the screen.

I imagine the modders are very proud of their work, and can see how they might stand up to defend it, quite understandably. I personally think Anthony and Rob (and the other modders) do outstanding work, and am nothing but grateful to them for their efforts. I have never had a negative experience dealing with ANY of the modders, and have never felt or perceived any arrogance or disdain in dealing with any of them. I've sent and received several emails from Anthony recently regarding some modules, and he has always responded promptly and graciously. I've had the same experience in my dealings with Rob, as well.