Parallel modules, hack MTS!

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m0jo

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SO instead of bothering Anthony with the millionth crazy idea I've had.. I'm posting it here. :lol:

I've just had the revelation that the switching of the channels is done on the modules..
What this means is that the signal is always going to the modules (I've checked this in the RM4 schematics, and if they are correct.. that statement is correct ;) )

SO if you were to jumper the 3 optocouplers in your modules into always-on (requires solering a few jumpers across 1 mm gaps) you could have a module that is always on and paralell to your chosen channel (or you could turn multiple modules into paralell modules, mixing different tones).
It could be an awesome tone tool .. for instance mix a crunch module together with your hi-gainers for a more defined sound.

Now the question remains: who is going to try this?

Warning: this might be dangerous for your amp! Check with a modder first to see wether this could cause damage!
It doesn't seem to be to me, but I do not fully know the system and amps.
 
To be honest, having 3 RM4s I am able to do this and it never sounded good to me...I can activate all three RM4s and a module from each and, while I haven't done it much, it always sounds overdone...Great idea m0jo, I'll have to play with it more...Very creative...I always like your alternative thinking...:)
 
I too have multiple M4s and tried this and it really only ever sounded good when running in stereo and panning one hard right and one hard left...then again, live, running in stereo practically never really made sense for me.
 
Well yes, having multiple RM4's is also a way (grumble).
But this is much more fun ;)

I'd say if you try using paralell sounds, do it the same as double tracking (which it basically is) and lower the gain (on both or one).
That should clean it up a bit.

It would be a bit of a luxury experiment.. if you have a module to spare.
Although it is of course completely reversable (if it works at all, I fear we still need to check with Anthony or someone else)

Anyway, that's just another crazy idea.
Just like paralell channels on a module (like the Hiwatt module, I asked Anthony about that.. he responded that he was already working on that, ******!), a poweramp module (not possible) etc.
 
Now, if it were to be a new type of module that's NOT a preamp - like say an EQ or even a venture into other effects, then yes, running those at the same time would be quite interesting.
I never really use more than two or three modules anyways, so the fourth could easily be something that adds more functionality to the others...
THAT could be cool...
 
jimosity said:
I too have multiple M4s and tried this and it really only ever sounded good when running in stereo and panning one hard right and one hard left...then again, live, running in stereo practically never really made sense for me.
Hmm, agreed there, playing stereo live doesn't have much use.
Maybe if you go straight into the PA and that is also stereo, but only a small amount of people (if any) standing on the right spot will experience the stereo effect properly.

I've tried it with multiple cabs .. really you only hear much of a difference when you space them out a lot and turn up your effects..
So especially on small stages it's completely useless and impractical.

By the way: what are you using to switch your M4s? Did you go the GCX route?

jimosity said:
Now, if it were to be a new type of module that's NOT a preamp - like say an EQ or even a venture into other effects, then yes, running those at the same time would be quite interesting.
I never really use more than two or three modules anyways, so the fourth could easily be something that adds more functionality to the others...
THAT could be cool...
Hmm, problems:
- EQ should really be in series (I've played with parallel EQs.. not very useful IMO)
- Parallel effects .. use the loop ;)

WOW, idea! *light pops on*

M4s do not have effects loops.
But using the signal in and out of the module you could make an effects loops module with jacks and mix knobs on the front.

It would be a bit intensive .. versus using the mix on your effects unit, or actually just making a little looper box.
You could do a lot with the modules platform .. but it's all not really realistic, you're better off using something that was made to do what it's supposed to do versus hacking MTS..

I still like thinking of stuff though, theoretically.
 
I've got a GCX, but when I was running multiple preamps, I used a combination of the Axess Electronics BS-2 and the Axess GRX-4.
I was trying to take up as little rack space as possible, thus using those over the GCX, plus those two units are flat out awesome.

I've always looked at an effects loop as something that comes between a preamp section and a power amp section...so an FX loop in a preamp seems kinda pointless to me...I mean, what's the difference between that and placing effects after the M4? Honestly, I'd like to know for reals.
 
jimosity said:
I've got a GCX, but when I was running multiple preamps, I used a combination of the Axess Electronics BS-2 and the Axess GRX-4.
I was trying to take up as little rack space as possible, thus using those over the GCX, plus those two units are flat out awesome.

I've always looked at an effects loop as something that comes between a preamp section and a power amp section...so an FX loop in a preamp seems kinda pointless to me...I mean, what's the difference between that and placing effects after the M4? Honestly, I'd like to know for reals.
A series loop is indeed useless to have in a preamp/poweramp setup.

But parallel is good to have, by using the kill-dry on your effects unit you can avoid an extra AD/DA conversion.
Also in the event that your effects unit craps out, you can continue playing :) (not really something you count on, but (sh)it happens).

It would be easyer if multieffects makers would add a "parallel" option, which connects the input to the output instead of the whole kill-dry+loops deal.
 
Hm, and here I was thinking, someone found a way to switch Dualchannel Egnater modules from a to b channel by using an outside dipswitch
 
I've been running modules in parallel for a couple years.
I run my M4 as main tone and also have either my Mod 100 or Mod 50 running with an additional module. I will say that not everything works together...There are phase issues between certain modules for various reasons--gain stages, eq, but some sound really good together.

My preferred method is to run a higher gain sound on the M4 with a lower gain sound on the head. I get added clarity and more bloom on single notes and chords just sound huge.
The head runs dry into 1x12 cab (or load) and M4 runs stereo thru RT2/50 into a 4x12 cab. I take a feed from the head and mix it with the stereo M4 signal via a line mixer. Favorite combo is an EG3/4 or SL mixed with a VX. Great combo. Mixing clean sounds also sound good, IE. VX with DLX. Granted, I use am RJM Y-not to split the guitar signal and it has a phase switch so I can phase align the different modules to avoid that problem. I also keep the head volume lower as it is more or less adding to the main M4 sound.

I'm really happy with the tones I can get. The modular gear gives so many possibilities of running a multi-amp rig. Done right, the sound is massive.
 
Our custom RM2 mixes modules in mono, pre the fx loop, and it works great, but only if the modules use the same number of tube stages!

Tube stages typically flip the phase, so it's possible that a hi-gain module paired with a not so hi-gain module would end up out of phase and thus sound like crap together collapsed to mono. This is likely why many haven't found success mixing modules. I use only our own modded mid-gain modules to avoid this issue (vintage Marshall, Vox, Matchless, Fender tones etc). This is likely why Randall and Egnater didn't include module mixing in the first place, plus you'd need a circuit to mix them or hack the RM4/M4 for individual module outs for an external mixer as well.

The custom RM2 does not have MIDI, rather it switches channels by running a CV out to a multi-switch foot-switch to either switch or mix the two modules which are then passively mixed to mono with the limitations that passive mixing implies. It would probably be easiest for someone to bypass the RM4's MIDI switching and set it up with a multi-switch foot pedal controlling the CV's IMO.

I have no idea what more than two modules would sound like together, probably over kill! :?:

Good luck...

m0jo said:
SO instead of bothering Anthony with the millionth crazy idea I've had.. I'm posting it here. :lol:

I've just had the revelation that the switching of the channels is done on the modules..
What this means is that the signal is always going to the modules (I've checked this in the RM4 schematics, and if they are correct.. that statement is correct ;) )

SO if you were to jumper the 3 optocouplers in your modules into always-on (requires solering a few jumpers across 1 mm gaps) you could have a module that is always on and paralell to your chosen channel (or you could turn multiple modules into paralell modules, mixing different tones).
It could be an awesome tone tool .. for instance mix a crunch module together with your hi-gainers for a more defined sound.

Now the question remains: who is going to try this?

Warning: this might be dangerous for your amp! Check with a modder first to see wether this could cause damage!
It doesn't seem to be to me, but I do not fully know the system and amps.
 
djdayson said:
Our custom RM2 mixes modules in mono, pre the fx loop, and it works great, but only if the modules use the same number of tube stages! The custom RM2 does not have MIDI, so it switches channels by running a CV out to a foot-switch to either switch or mix the two modules.

Tube stages typically flip the phase, so it's possible that a hi-gain module paired with a not so hi-gain module would end up out of phase and thus sound like crap together collapsed to mono. This is likely why many haven't found success mixing modules. I use only our own modded mid-gain modules to avoid this issue (Marshall, Vox, Matchless, Fender tones etc). This is likely why Randall and Egnater didn't include module mixing in the first place.

It would probably be easiest for someone to bypass the RM4's MIDI switching and set it up like a typical guitar amp with a multi-switch foot pedal controlling a CV IMHO.

Good luck...

m0jo said:
SO instead of bothering Anthony with the millionth crazy idea I've had.. I'm posting it here. :lol:

I've just had the revelation that the switching of the channels is done on the modules..
What this means is that the signal is always going to the modules (I've checked this in the RM4 schematics, and if they are correct.. that statement is correct ;) )

SO if you were to jumper the 3 optocouplers in your modules into always-on (requires solering a few jumpers across 1 mm gaps) you could have a module that is always on and paralell to your chosen channel (or you could turn multiple modules into paralell modules, mixing different tones).
It could be an awesome tone tool .. for instance mix a crunch module together with your hi-gainers for a more defined sound.

Now the question remains: who is going to try this?

Warning: this might be dangerous for your amp! Check with a modder first to see wether this could cause damage!
It doesn't seem to be to me, but I do not fully know the system and amps.
Custom RM2? Wow wow hold up, what are you talking about and who makes it?
 
It's home made, one of a kind.

Bruce Egnater has repeatedly said they're going to build their M2 going forward, though I don't know if it'll allow mixing? Contact Bruce Egnater to see...

[email protected]

m0jo said:
djdayson said:
Our custom RM2 mixes modules in mono, pre the fx loop, and it works great, but only if the modules use the same number of tube stages! The custom RM2 does not have MIDI, so it switches channels by running a CV out to a foot-switch to either switch or mix the two modules.

Tube stages typically flip the phase, so it's possible that a hi-gain module paired with a not so hi-gain module would end up out of phase and thus sound like crap together collapsed to mono. This is likely why many haven't found success mixing modules. I use only our own modded mid-gain modules to avoid this issue (Marshall, Vox, Matchless, Fender tones etc). This is likely why Randall and Egnater didn't include module mixing in the first place.

It would probably be easiest for someone to bypass the RM4's MIDI switching and set it up like a typical guitar amp with a multi-switch foot pedal controlling a CV IMHO.

Good luck...

m0jo said:
SO instead of bothering Anthony with the millionth crazy idea I've had.. I'm posting it here. :lol:

I've just had the revelation that the switching of the channels is done on the modules..
What this means is that the signal is always going to the modules (I've checked this in the RM4 schematics, and if they are correct.. that statement is correct ;) )

SO if you were to jumper the 3 optocouplers in your modules into always-on (requires solering a few jumpers across 1 mm gaps) you could have a module that is always on and paralell to your chosen channel (or you could turn multiple modules into paralell modules, mixing different tones).
It could be an awesome tone tool .. for instance mix a crunch module together with your hi-gainers for a more defined sound.

Now the question remains: who is going to try this?

Warning: this might be dangerous for your amp! Check with a modder first to see wether this could cause damage!
It doesn't seem to be to me, but I do not fully know the system and amps.
Custom RM2? Wow wow hold up, what are you talking about and who makes it?
 
When I asked Bruce about this, he said it could not be done. So I gave up on the idea. I've been running two RM-50 combos in stereo with different modules for a few years now. My Mashall and XTC sound great together. I also run a stereo delay in the effect loop of both amps so I get stereo delay.
One amp has 6L6s, while the other has EL34s. I've been pretty happy.
 
On the Egnater modules, there are relays I think that do the switching.
I think I read that Jeff Hilligan can modify the modules so that it selects channel B instead of A in a single channel setup...which leads me to believe that maybe it's possible to put in a toggle at least to select between the two sides of an Egnater module when used in a single channel RM4 or RM unit?

If that's possible, maybe instead of a toggle, a 1/4" (or 1/8" jack) could be added to allow for midi switching via GCX or even a G-Major to get to both channels of an Egnater module. I have an RM100 with a G-Major mounted in the chassis, I sure wouldn't mind a couple 1/8" cables running to some modded Egnater modules if it meant I could use both channels without modding my RM100 since that seems like a huge pain.
 
Ace Frehley of Kiss always uses 2 separate Marshall heads in parallel - one that is great for it's high end and one that has a fat bottom end .

End result - HUGE tone

I've seen him on a few of his solo gigs and the tone has been to die for

I contemplated mixing modules via more than one M4 and a mixer to get a similar result
 
jimosity said:
On the Egnater modules, there are relays I think that do the switching.
I think I read that Jeff Hilligan can modify the modules so that it selects channel B instead of A in a single channel setup...which leads me to believe that maybe it's possible to put in a toggle at least to select between the two sides of an Egnater module when used in a single channel RM4 or RM unit?

If that's possible, maybe instead of a toggle, a 1/4" (or 1/8" jack) could be added to allow for midi switching via GCX or even a G-Major to get to both channels of an Egnater module. I have an RM100 with a G-Major mounted in the chassis, I sure wouldn't mind a couple 1/8" cables running to some modded Egnater modules if it meant I could use both channels without modding my RM100 since that seems like a huge pain.

I'm sure Salvation or Hyenik has figured this out....my bet is that it's trivial to either hack each module with a toggle to flip those relays or fake the MIDI switch on the backplane in the RM100 by using a toggle switch mounted in the RM100.

If I can ever figure this out them I'm selling my Egnater gear...I only use one module currently that I'd truly miss (COD) with the occasional EG3/4.....I've been waiting for the E2 for too freakin' long already :-(
 
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