SYN2 sag control, Syn2 vs M4

Synergy/MTS Forum

Help Support Synergy/MTS Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

blacksun

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 2, 2011
Messages
417
Reaction score
2
Location
Wherever there's a guitar shop
Hi,

Debating whether I should get a syn2 or just be happy with my M4 armada. I'm a rack guy, I have no need for an extra two channels setup added to the fx loop of a head.
Yet of course always GASsing towards something new :) and I'm wondering if a syn2 would bring much more to the table. The only feature would be perhaps the sag control feature, designed by Mr Fryette. I have this Fryette valvulator gp/di with the sag control and I don't think it is by no means a game changer..

Does the syn2 sound "better"?
 
sag, I have sag feature in my effects loop controller... I also have it on a few pedals... highly over rated. I'm actually confused why its even in the synergy stuff... it does **** all not much in my effects loop controller.. I also have it on the power supply.. I've tried it a buncha times... wouldn't keep or get rid of a piece of equipment based on a sag control alone.
 
New to the forum and trying to get my 10 posts in. Has anybody upgraded their RM4 to accept dual mods and then tried any Synergy mods?
 
The sag functionality in the Synergy hardware would best be described in guitarist speak like a compressor-type of effect. I find it effective. As to if it's something you will like or use is a personal decision.

One strong argument to grab the Synergy hardware is to take advantage of the cathode sensing tech when using Synergy modules. Obviously if you don't plan to buy the modules it's not as lucrative.

As Paul noted, my shop is now offering his dual channel upgrades. I am installing a kit right now in an RM100 and it works as advertised.
 
With increased sag = increased compression, as if lack of enough power reduces the output signal amplitude of stronger input signals?

Beside the cathode thing, are there any other structural differences in the hardware making a Syn2, with say a fantastic JFM800 module sound better than an M4 with the same high class modded module?
 
blacksun said:
With increased sag = increased compression, as if lack of enough power reduces the output signal amplitude of stronger input signals?

Beside the cathode thing, are there any other structural differences in the hardware making a Syn2, with say a fantastic JFM800 module sound better than an M4 with the same high class modded module?

I didn't build this amp blacksun (so I'm not 100% sure what they did in there), but true sag is supposed to cause the sound to become more organic due to variances in the output. Its not actually (supposed to be) constant reduced output as much as inconsistent variable output. Its basically supposed to emulate a failing component, that.... sometimes puts out its expected power and sometimes doesn't. Or emulate a crazy inconsistent house power. ..and not to peck a fight w Rob, but in a lot of ways that's the exact opposite of compression. Compression seeks to suppress and control a tone, sag is completely out of control.. that's kind of the point. I mean when you turn the sag down the amp may start to sound more compressed, but that would (should be) due to the sag being turned off, and not a function of the sag itself. In other words the amp would have to be very compressed sounding on its own. Turning off the sag would make that more evident. ...and I guess you could stretch the universe and call that a reverse compression setting or something weird lmao

..and I don't own one of these to check, but its very conceivable that its wired in a way that turning it up turns it off. Turning it down lowers the power. Thereby giving the impression that as you turn it up (which is actually down) you're increasing some kind of compression... anyways

IMO (which is just mine and I'm entitled to it) is that its kind of weird/silly and borderline/questionably/arguably useless to have it on this amp.

The only thing I can think is "maybe" and I'm making guesses out of my *** on this statement, but.. maybe the amp sounded way too "unhappy" for lack of a better word when they 1st built it, and they put that sag control in there to correct it. Who knows? Certainly not me.

A tube amp, due to all kinds of variables, is already pretty inconsistent, and that's why it sounds better than a SS amp.

They put sag on stuff like pedals because pedals use diodes instead of tubes, and sag makes them sound more like tube amps..

Try to make a tube amp sound more like a tube amp? Ok why not? lmao

..but hey, there's a good chance I'm completely wrong :lol:
 
Jaded Faith said:
As Paul noted, my shop is now offering his dual channel upgrades. I am installing a kit right now in an RM100 and it works as advertised.

This is great news. I was interested in having the upgrade performed, but didn't want to entrust the job to a non-MTS-savvy tech.
 
Ha, Yeh just went and read the manual.. Here's a funny quote...

SAG - Under license from Steven Fryette Designs, the SAG knob mimics the voltage sag of a tube amplifier. This effect is subtle and is really a “feel” thing. It is recommended that you adjust the knob to level where the LED just comes on with heavy guitar pick attack.

Funny....

So is Synergy actually a tube amp? Or is it a mimicerex? LMAO
 
It is recommended that you adjust the knob to level where the LED just comes on with heavy guitar pick attack.

Because if you turn it any higher, it will sound like utter crap...

True story.
 
MarcoR said:
It is recommended that you adjust the knob to level where the LED just comes on with heavy guitar pick attack.

Because if you turn it any higher, it will sound like utter crap...

True story.

"utter crap". Can I get a more descriptive/specific analysis Marco? Sounds like you're confirming my guess I made out of my ***. ...and now I'm curious

Is it like almost a clipping/overloaded kind of "utter crap"?
 
So regardless of the sag feature , is there any difference in sound quality between the old gear and the Synergy hardware?
I was hoping at lest that it would be lower noise.
 
Capt_Tippy said:
Is it like almost a clipping/overloaded kind of "utter crap"?

No, it's trying to give the feel of an amp starved of power. It's not clipping, it's more like sucking the juice away. So if you turn it up any more than when the LED starts to light up, the volume lowers, the sound collapses; it's like the opposite of bloom.

So regardless of the sag feature , is there any difference in sound quality between the old gear and the Synergy hardware?
I was hoping at lest that it would be lower noise.

I think the cathode sensing with the selectable cathode bias on the new modules is a great new feature. You can really dial in the modules for the feel you want with different guitars.

There is a lot of connectivity options, they did a great job covering many possible routing configurations. It's extremely well built. As far as noise, my M4 wasn't noisy and neither its the SYN2. There is a ground lift if needed.

Last, the speaker emulation is surprisingly good if you want to do some silent recording.
 
MarcoR said:
Capt_Tippy said:
Is it like almost a clipping/overloaded kind of "utter crap"?

No, it's trying to give the feel of an amp starved of power. It's not clipping, it's more like sucking the juice away. So if you turn it up any more than when the LED starts to light up, the volume lowers, the sound collapses; it's like the opposite of bloom.

uhmmmm Yuk? Yikes? WTF? Which one applies best?

You prolly just don't know how to dial it in Marco ;)

In fact you prolly shouldn't even own an amp lmao (This is OF COURSE a joke)
 
Capt_Tippy said:
uhmmmm Yuk? Yikes? WTF? Which one applies best?

You prolly just don't know how to dial it in Marco ;)

In fact you prolly shouldn't even own an amp lmao (This is OF COURSE a joke)

Hahaha!!! I know how to dial it in... 100% counter clockwise sounds great!
Joking aside, setting to where the led just starts to light is fine when going direct to the DAW. With a decent real power section it's totally not needed. Curious how it would work with the Seymour Duncan Powerstage 800.
 
MarcoR said:
Hahaha!!! I know how to dial it in... 100% counter clockwise sounds great!

Good info Marco.

Id actually really like to know what the intention was.

Probably never get that information.

Good to know you can at least turn it off LoL

MarcoR said:
setting to where the led just starts to light is fine when going direct to the DAW

So you're saying it's "fine", but do you use it? or still keep it turned full counterclockwise?
 
Capt_Tippy said:
So you're saying it's "fine", but do you use it? or still keep it turned full counterclockwise?

Yes, I would probably use it in some situations. If you want to soften the feel, it works but you don't want to hear it, just barely feel it if that makes sense. About 8:30 - 9:00 ar the most which is about where Shaun has it set in his videos. I also noticed in his videos, he backed it off a bit more in the latest compared to the first couple.
 
Jaded Faith said:
The sag functionality in the Synergy hardware would best be described in guitarist speak like a compressor-type of effect. I find it effective. As to if it's something you will like or use is a personal decision.

One strong argument to grab the Synergy hardware is to take advantage of the cathode sensing tech when using Synergy modules. Obviously if you don't plan to buy the modules it's not as lucrative.

As Paul noted, my shop is now offering his dual channel upgrades. I am installing a kit right now in an RM100 and it works as advertised.

What's the price for the mod plus your installation (on an M4)?
 
What's the price for the mod plus your installation (on an M4)?

Parts (same pricing as seen on Paul's site, plus the shipping costs to obtain it) plus 2 hours labor at shop rates ($65 an hour as of 2017).
 
I agree with Marco on the SAG knob. I had a rehearsal last night and didn't realize that the SAG knob had been turned up accidentally. I was playing fairly loudly and all of a sudden it was like "WTF? What happened to my power?" I turned the knob back to zero and everything was fine. It works nicely with the knob set at maybe 1....not 1 o'clock, but 1. Anymore than that it can cut the power when you lean into it. Other than that feature, I love the SYN 2.
 
ricky said:
I agree with Marco on the SAG knob. I had a rehearsal last night and didn't realize that the SAG knob had been turned up accidentally. I was playing fairly loudly and all of a sudden it was like "WTF? What happened to my power?" I turned the knob back to zero and everything was fine. It works nicely with the knob set at maybe 1....not 1 o'clock, but 1. Anymore than that it can cut the power when you lean into it. Other than that feature, I love the SYN 2.

Haven't found any use for that control turned past 9 o'clock on the dial...and even 9 is high for many guitars...red light stays lit all the time and signal seems robbed of dynamics.. So let's say 8:30, which is probably about 1-2 if there were #s on the dial.
 
Top