Volume Question (Frustration Content)

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crushabud
RM20
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Post by crushabud » Wed Aug 03, 2011 10:47 am

All good stuff, gentlemen...especially Mattfig's info. I never thought of altering tone for quiet/loud, but then again, I've never been able to play loud at home...

I'm not talking about rehearsal/practice here; I'm talking about a guy sitting in his bedroom, wanting to hear how his amp will sound with the power section engaged. In every forum I've been in, there's always people saying "So I turned the master up to 4..." or words to that effect. I've never understood how anyone gets away with that... :?

How about the old volume-pedal-in-the-FX-loop thing? Since the RM100 has buffered FX loop(s), I was thinking of putting a good quality VP (like an Ernie Ball) in the loop, so I can turn up the MV, then barely crack open the pedal. Wouldn't the buffering prevent tone alteration, or am I incorrect in this assumption? I've heard/read alot about attenuators affecting tone...
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Slashpepper
RM50
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Post by Slashpepper » Wed Aug 03, 2011 11:03 am

I live in an apartment block, so I don't even try turning it up at home :-(

At four I'd get evicted, lol. Band practice is the only time I can try it out unfortunately.
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Julia
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Post by Julia » Wed Aug 03, 2011 11:14 am

Effects loops are tube buffered.

A volume pedal in the effects loop won't do any more than what you can already accomplish by lowering the output volume on the module, or by lowering the level on the master volume, which I believe is pre-phase inverter.

There is no way you are going to engage the power tubes without both the channel volume level and the master volume levels over noon. At 2:00 you might start clipping the power tubes --- this actually can get dangerous for your amp, and I especially wouldn't try this with EL34s.

Over noon on both is stupid loud. Most people today don't really like power distortion anyway.

I once figured out I was using about 5W playing loud on my RM100 just going by sound level. How did I come to that? I heard a 5W Marshall Class 5 through a 412. It was too loud. Then again I'm getting too old.
Disregard all advice pertaining to gain and tone from this user if you are under the age of 40 and play thrash.

Too old to Rock N Roll. Too young to die.

kc2eeb
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General Music Discussion

Post by kc2eeb » Wed Aug 03, 2011 3:11 pm

Crushabud,
It may me worth your while to rent some studio time, take the amp,
and turn it up. No pedals, just the guitar, the cord and the amp.
I regularly play my RM50 with the module masters all the way up, and the
power amp at least 12 noon to full up. I use a pair of Ruby 6L6s.
Then you can judge for yourself. The only thing that matters is how you like the sound.

Mattfig
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Post by Mattfig » Wed Aug 03, 2011 3:38 pm

I also use a simple Alesis 3630 in the series loop...Not so much to compress but to limit and also to attenuate volume ... Works great for me and cheap!

I also programmed my MIDI gear for 2 different banks of settings...One for low sound levels and the other for when I'm opening it up...It took a bit but worked out well...
:D
Matt Fig -
MotorCity Mods
www.motorcitymods.com

Kemper Profiles -
www.mattfig.com

m0jo
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Post by m0jo » Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:40 pm

We rehearse as loud as gigs ...
Actually, I wear earplugs at rehearsal and didn't at the last gig (the level was the same, but not as much pressure, bigger room)
Our rehearsal space is next to the drummer's dad's house, but other houses are pretty far away.
So yeah the answer is either soundproof the *** out of your rehearsal space, or just find something remote in a field ;) :D

You could also find a friend with some kind of isolated space (isolated as in far away from people), and check out your band's setup there.
That'll be cheaper than a studio. :)

@Julia
You might have to get over noon+noon to get real noticable power tube distortion, but they will start working a while before that in my experience.
I tried my Ibanez Valbee through the cab too (5w), yes that is damn loud. But the tone from the 50 watts is definitly better.
But you run KT88's right?

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Julia
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Post by Julia » Tue Sep 13, 2011 9:56 am

6550s because I can't get any tube less sturdy to last longer than 4 months. Tubes got real expensive. And sorry, I like the Line 6 "crap". It serves it's purpose just fine. And so does my Fender HR Deville on clean -- no I don't worry about power tube cooking. That amp doesn't go through tubes: Sovtek 5881s and I turn up the amp to about 2.

I'm not playing in a band. My hearing is bad enough. I don't play over 85 dB anymore. I have to limit practice even on my grand piano due to the SPLs because of hearing loss. I need to save what I've got left. 80% in my left ear, 30% - 40% in my right ear (and some days 10% -- those are the days I can't hear pitch well).

Hence I'm playing keyboards more because I don't have to worry about if a bend is in pitch. Or just doing the campfire girl thing on my acoustic and I use a capo. You guys can play circles around me on a guitar with ease.
Disregard all advice pertaining to gain and tone from this user if you are under the age of 40 and play thrash.

Too old to Rock N Roll. Too young to die.

m0jo
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Post by m0jo » Tue Sep 13, 2011 10:02 am

Julia wrote:6550s because I can't get any tube less sturdy to last longer than 4 months.
This is still strange to me, is this always in the same amp?
I've had some tubes blow that were already fried by the bassplayer's amp, but I've never had any other powertubes fail.

Perhaps your home voltage is high or something funky like that is causing them to be overworked?

Salvation Mods Twinface, Mash-all+, Sloogie, Mu?eca, Shiver (Facelift), modded XTC, stock Recto
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TT-Cabs REX V212


www.sparkplugmusic.nl

Julia
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Post by Julia » Wed Sep 14, 2011 10:58 am

m0jo wrote:
Julia wrote:6550s because I can't get any tube less sturdy to last longer than 4 months.
This is still strange to me, is this always in the same amp?
I've had some tubes blow that were already fried by the bassplayer's amp, but I've never had any other powertubes fail.

Perhaps your home voltage is high or something funky like that is causing them to be overworked?
No. It's been in every single amp except the Fender. I've had tube problems in two Marshall heads, and the Lynch Box. Consequently I'm not a tube fanatic. Note: I don't play that loud, and I have the impedance switch set properly. But I've been playing keyboards more lately anyway.
Disregard all advice pertaining to gain and tone from this user if you are under the age of 40 and play thrash.

Too old to Rock N Roll. Too young to die.

chris_bubel
RM20
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Post by chris_bubel » Wed Oct 17, 2012 12:00 am

I play in my band with a 100 watt mesa dual rec, but at home i practice through my macbook->interface->amplitube->headphones...... its what works best for me

GtrGeorge!
Lynch Box
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Dynamics??? Im playing as LOUD as I can!!!!!!!!!!!!

Post by GtrGeorge! » Sat Nov 17, 2012 9:07 pm

This topic is near and dear to my heart.
I have been working on this for a long while...here's the upshot.

When I play, I do it professionally..and the truth is THE VOCALS are more important than the guitar. So that limits how loud the guitar is going to be...or needs to be.
I play everywhere from small places to BIG Rooms (600 people..like an aircraft hanger..) so I need a guitar situation that can adapt to the situation.
I tried an rm50..but It never sounded all that good to me..the loop sucked and only 2 modules was limiting. I dont go for that. I tried a rm22 and while it is great recording amp...its not quite loud enough for the big rooms. And still, only 2 slots.
So I use an rm4 and rt 2/50 for the biggest gigs (with a Gmajor for Fx)and a Hughes and Kettner Switchblade combo (built in basic Fx) for the smaller rooms. Anything in between I use the H/K and bring an extra speaker cab...works out well,imho.
I never wasted my time on power attenuators..to me..whats the point?..if you need one..YOU BOUGHT THE WRONG AMP,CHAMP.
And pedals for authentic overdrive almost always suck. Trust me..I own a S***Load of them. Great for recording, not practical for live use.
I used to play in a very loud band where my rm4 rig had trouble keeping up with the drums and bass (these guys were INSANELY LOUD)..and I left the band. Its just unprofessional the way some people play music. I could never hear ANYTHING because I had hearing protection in at all times..and I still woke up the next day with ringing!!!!!
Just ridiculous. I have found that you will never really need a 100 watt amp professionally. In truth, a true 50 watt amp is the max..more than that just F's -up the monitor mix..and is a hassle to transport,anyway.
But we live in a weird time,most people who buy gear don't play professionally...they have weird ideas on what they "need". And the BS salespeople and the companies will endlessly enjoy the cycle of gear that people go thru. But look at true pros..and its always just a few names that always come up..Fender,Marshall, etc..there is a reason. And so often its only a handful of specific models, too (a Deluxe Reverb,a Marshall Plexi etc)..there is a reason for this. They produce good tones at proper volumes,professionally.
But back on point: the good news is:You will have to use a ligh,low wattage amp (your back can thank me later..)..and you;ll have to run it somewhere between 2-5...which is the sweet spot almost always. The good news is...you won't need a second speaker cabinet unless you play really big rooms. You just have to put your amp on a chair, so that it's aimed at your ears..NOT your ankles. And the good news is..this is all cheaper and better for you than wasting time at GC or some other big box store seeing if uncle Bruce has finally decided to make what you need. Life is short, it is faster and better to learn how to use solid professional gear that is time proven than to wait for something else, or someone else to remedy the tone-volume thing. 20-50 watts is the deal,folks.
..and yeah, If I need to do a rig-check I rent a rehearsal studio and tweak away at high volumes..this way, when I work in band setting I am not wasting other people's time (which is money) with my gear woes.

thanks for reading this...I hope you were up for a dissertation.
Carry on... GtrGeorge
now lets go back to comparing and contrasting the use of pentode rectification in 200 watt Marshall Majors, because that's what we need in our bedrooms to play Smoke on the Water, correctly. (just had to be a little funny here...)

gag halfrunt
Lynch Box
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Re: General Music Discussion.

Post by gag halfrunt » Sun Nov 18, 2012 10:30 am

kc2eeb wrote:In a sense, it's sad. We buy what we hope is a great amp to get "the sound"
and then, for a preciously small amount of time, get to play it the way it sounds best. One of the greatest tones and sounds I ever got to record was
playing through an original tweed Fender Bassman 4x10 amp I should have never sold, basically wide open, with two mikes, one at the speaker and one
in the room. 10 minutes to set up, 15 minutes to record. A sound engineer
that didn't make me turn it down. He captured the sound I created.
Sounds like a dream recording session. Too bad it can't always be like that.
My Band's website (I'm Bill, the lead guitarist): www.impossibletuesday.com/about.html

Kemper into Atomic CLR neo.

Graham Pearson
RM100
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5W of Ecstacy

Post by Graham Pearson » Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:36 pm

Back in the late 70's, I was living in Charleston West Virginia. One day in the local newspaper, an ad read:

"Gibson electric guitar, red color, with practice amp, $150"

I tootled on over to the guy's house with my $150, only to discover it was a 1959 Les Paul Junior and a 5W Supro Valco Champ. He was surprised when I didn't haggle over the asking price or when I didn't even ask to try it out before buying it.

Today, that little Supro make a great statement on stage. It has a 5Y3-GT rectifier, one 12AX7 and one 6V6-GT. I run it flat out and stick a Sennheiser 609 in front of it. The 5Y3 gives it lots of "sag" and the tone is unbeatable for blues. The LP Junior helps too.

By the way, I called the guy back after about 2 weeks to thank him for my purchase. He said "I got a lot of calls about that ad". I wonder why?

kc2eeb
Lynch Box
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General Music Discussion

Post by kc2eeb » Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:40 pm

I believe the first Led Zeppelin album was done with a Tele and small Supro
(also sold as Gretsch) amp. It's always the sound of the whole amp being pushed that does the magic.

GtrGeorge!
Lynch Box
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Post by GtrGeorge! » Fri Dec 28, 2012 11:42 pm

The magic is in your hands, your heart and your head/
The blues guys did it with crappy gear...often solid state junk the club owned.
Its not the gear...
Its YOU.......can you dig that?

GtrGeorge

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