Twenty Channel Head

I've been working on a twenty channel Egnater head for a while, and I finally got it working today, although with only 8 modules right now, so it's only 16 channel until I get two more modules. I'm posting this info to let you know how I did it in case you want to do it or something similar. The info should apply to expanding any amp with an effects loop using either Egnater M4s or Randall RM4s.

I'm using a mod 50 head and two M4s, with an Axess Electronics GRX4 guitar router/switcher, and Axess Electronics BS2 buffer splitter, and a Rocktron Midi Mate. The switching is totally transparent. No pop at all. In order to switch three preamps, the BS2 buffer/splitter has to have a 2nd isolation transformer installed in the SPLIT OUT jack/position, so make sure you have this option installed when you order it. According to Mario at Axess Electronics, here's how to hook it up.

guitar -> BS2 IN
BS2 Main OUT -> Mod 50 IN
BS2 ISOD OUT -> M4#1 IN
BS2 SPLIT OUT -> M4#2 IN
Mod 50 FX SEND -> GRX4 Loop 1 RTN
M4#1 OUT -> GRX4 Loop 2 RTN
M4#2 OUT -> GRX4 Loop 3 RTN
GRX4 OUT -> Mod 50 FX RTN

I purchased an older GRX4 from Brent Duersch, and it has different labels and maybe some different functions. I had to put the M0d 50 preamp on Loop 4 of the GRX4 because Loop 1 turned out to be dedicated to GRX4 output A, and loops 2-4 turned out to be dedicated to to GRX4 output B. So I just connected the Mod 50 FX SEND -> GRX4 Loop 4 RTN and used GRX4 output B as the GRX4 OUT.

Programming the Midi Mate turned out to be my biggest obstacle, because this was my first experience with MIDI. Jim Chowning at Rocktron traded about twenty emails helping me get the Midi Mate programmed properly. That is some awesome customer service.

Here is how to program a version 2 Midi Mate. You can tell the version of your Midi Mate because it is displayed briefly when the unit is turned on.

On the Rocktron Midi Mate
Hit 2nd once
Hit #6 twice and the display will scroll MIDI channels and stop at S1CH 1
Hit #6, six times paging thru until you get to B5CH OFF
Use the bank/adjust switches and set the Midi channel for button 5 to 1, B5CH 1
Hit #6 and go to B6CH OFF
Again use the bank/adjust switches and set for channel 1, B6CH 1
Hit #6 once again and set button 7, continue this until you have buttons 5 thru 8 all assigned to channel 1.
Once button 8 has been set hit #6 three more times to get to the controller assignments section. The display will stop at PEDCH OFF
Hit #6 twice to BTN5 OFF
Use the bank/adjust switches and set for controller number BTN5 84
Hit #6 once to BTN6 OFF
Use the bank/adjust switches and set for controller number BTN6 85
Hit #6 once to BTN7 OFF
Use the bank/adjust switches and set for controller number BTN7 86
Hit #6 once to BTN8 OFF
Use the bank/adjust switches and set for controller number BTN8 87
Hit 2nd to exit the editing mode.
Now buttons 5-8 should turn the loops on and off when in controller mode on the midi mate. Be careful to turn on only one loop at a time. Stepping on a button turns an off loop on and an on loop off.
Next go to instant mode and recall presets by entering, for example, 01 to recall preset 1.
With preset 1 recalled, use the button on the mod 50 or M4 that you want assigned to that preset to switch to the desired channel for the preset. Then store the preset for that channel on your preamp by holding the channel selector button on the preamp in for three seconds. I am told that the Randall products have a separate store button for this purpose.
Without recalling a different preset, switch to controller mode and select one of the buttons 5-8 to turn on the loop for the preamp that you are using. Make sure by the indicator light on the midimate and on the GRX4 that only one loop is on, and that you are using the correct loop.
Hit 2nd
Hit store
Repeat these steps for each preset you use.
Operate the Midi Mate in Instant mode to switch through all twenty channels at will with two button access. If you prefer one button acces then, you can set up ten cnannels on, say, presets 40-49, and another set of ten channels on presets 50-59. Then you can recall any preset between 40-49 in instant mode, and then enter bank mode to get one button access to presets 40-49. Then, you can switch to intant mode and recall any of presets 50-59, return to bank mode, and get one button access to those presets. So you can get one button access aithin a bank of 10 presets, but you have to hit four buttons to switch between banks. If you are using Randall products or the older single channel Egnater modules, then you can probably get all ten channels in one bank.

If you are using a version 1 Midi Mate, then it looks like the steps are the same. If you get stuck, write Rocktron for assistance and please post the solution here.

Cheers!

Wow! :shock:

Can we see some pics?

Man, I was just going to say, thanks for sharing the in-depth info. Great of you to take the time. I'll probably not be running the same kit as you, but I'm sure I'll find your midi stuff very useful. In fact, I'm going to bookmark this.

Thanks again! :mrgreen:

Jennifer--

Glad to hear that the Midimate/GRX4 combination is finally working. I knew it'd get sorted out eventually... bummer though that you couldn't get it going before NAMM.

Gotta agree w/ Scooter, here... you can't talk about a 20-channel rig on this forum without having pictures.

--B

That isn't a real rig until you have at least 300 channels.




















:lol:

Uhhhhh......



:lol:

I tried the following to post a pic or two. Anyone know why it's not working?





Anyway, you can view the eyecandy by following the link below or copying and pasting it into your browser address window.

http://www.geocities.com/tonesponge/EgnaterRig.html?1170011462115

tonesponge,

does your BS2 only have 1 isolated output? If so, how can you drive 3 preamps and not get any loop hum? I'm running my preamp/combo in a very similar manner.

do you run any effects? I was entertained that you have all that midi stuff just for changing channels. How often to you require all those different settings? Do you use multiples of the same module with different settings or are they just different modules? When I had a triaxis I was so excited because I had 8 channels and 99 presets, but when I acutally settled down with it I only used 1 clean setting and 1 distortion. Now I have 7 channels and I'd like more.

Cody

does your BS2 only have 1 isolated output? If so, how can you drive 3 preamps and not get any loop hum? I'm running my preamp/combo in a very similar manner.

Click to expand...

I got the BS2 with the second isolation transformer as Mario at Axess Electronics recommended, just so I can switch three preamps without noise. I don't have the third isolation trasformer on the out jack because I'm not running any effects that run on 120V AC. If I were, I would need the thrid islation transformer, I'm told. So if I get to the point I'm ready to do that, then I'll have to order another BS2 with three isolation transformers, or else send my current one in to Mario for the mod.

do you run any effects? I was entertained that you have all that midi stuff just for changing channels. How often to you require all those different settings? Do you use multiples of the same module with different settings or are they just different modules? When I had a triaxis I was so excited because I had 8 channels and 99 presets, but when I acutally settled down with it I only used 1 clean setting and 1 distortion. Now I have 7 channels and I'd like more.

Click to expand...

The only effects I tend to use are noise suppression (ISP Decimator) for cutting tube amp hum in the studio, and an old crybaby in front. I also have the reverb option on my mod 50, but I don't use it unless performing outside without a PA system. Otherwise I do noise control and reverb on the PA system. I'm considering getting a T Rex replica delay pedal, but expect I'll also normally use it on the PA system. After playing for 27 years, I'm not really into effects that much, although I used to be into them years ago. These days, I just use a high quality guitar, tube tone, high quality speakers, technique, and feedback.

Do you use multiples of the same module with different settings or are they just different modules?

Click to expand...

Oh yeah. They're all different modules. Pictured is every dual channel Egnater module except the SL and COD, and those are on order.

Let me try:







There you go! All better! You should try to make the file size bigger though, those pictures are tiny! :wink:

Hey! How'd you do that?

Oh, wait. I see. Never mind. Instead of putting in the name of the webpage, I should of right clicked on each photo on the webpage and checked the url for the photo under properties, then copied that url into the post between the image delimiters. Right?

Thanks!

Yep. No problem, that's what I'm here for! :lol:

Nice setup, ultimate recording / playing system

Do you notice much difference in tone if the module is in MOD50 or in M4 ?
Quess not since it all goes trough loops?

No difference to my ears.

I do notice a difference in tone if I use a different power amp. In particular, I find that all of the modules sound good through the power amp in the mod 50 head. However, I tried using a Mesa Boogie 50:50, and found that the Marshall type modules were really dull on that power amp, while the Twin, Vox, and Recto modules really shined. For example, the Recto module is sufficiently chunky when mid scooped on the mod 50, but on the Boogie, it's the chunkiest thing I've ever heard, even chunkier than a dual rectifier. But all of the modules were useless for playing lead on the Boogie power amp IMHO.

I'd like to try out the Randall power amp and the VHT and see what they sound like. I've seen Bruce and Frank using the VHT in the factory for the M4. Bruce said the VHT has just been the power amp that everyone has always used. But at the NAMM, they were running the M4 through the mod 50 head. I have to imagine that, since the modules are designed to be used with the mod 50 and mod 100, these power amps are probably optimal. I also expect the Randall power amp is designed for use with these modules and is also very good. Meanwhile, everyone seems to like the VHT as well. But the Boogie power amp is designed for use with a different kind of preamp.

Bruce said the real Boogie preamp is kind of wimpy, and the Boogie power amp has a really high intensity that makes up the difference. I noticed the Boogie power amp has three preamp tubes, and you can play directly into it without any preamp. So I think it may be really different from other power amps. Therefore, I don't think the Boogie power amp is likely to be the best choice for use with the Egnater or Randall modules. Maybe I'll get a chance to try out the other power amps some day, but I'm sticking with the mod 50 for now.

sorry if this is already covered .but are the power tubes in The Mod 50 the GT el34M. or something different .
Thanks

gtr31,

Thats what came in mine about a month ago.

-Matt

EWS,
You switched to 5881 didnt you ,
what is the diff between are you still using the 5881 or did you go back to the 34M .I am ordering in a few weeks.
Im going to get Bruce to do some custom tweaks to my gain Mod. still deciding on power tubes I love the Soldano sound and play 80s hard rock so im leaning that way .However the 34 are better for lead playing i think .
your opnions .

Yup, switched to TungSol 5881s almost right away and I LOVE them. I am not going back. The 5881s are definitely not as squishy as 34s, so if you prefer sag, you want 34s. Ive gotten used to the stiffer feel of 5881s from playing my SLO for a few years. The clarify is much better and bass feels tighter. The sound might not be quite as harmonically rich, but the attack is much more razor sharp and I prefer the clarity, headroom, and punch I get from 5881s. The MHG really came alive to my ears when I switched, though my VX isnt quite as Voxy.

Plus, 5881s are more reliable than 34s. They are a workhorse tube.

-Matt

My mod 50 came with 6L6s. Bruce will put 6L6s or EL34s in at your option. He can make it lower wattage, too, if that's what you want. I got to try one out with 6L6s that ran at 20 watts on the high power setting, and about 7 watts on the low power setting. Frank explained to me that starving the tubes for voltage to achieve the lower power has little effect on your high gain channels, but does degrade your clean tone. He said the two tone controls on the power amp are there to compensate for that loss, so you can just crank them up on the lower power settings. Tonally, I couldn't tell much difference between the lower power mod 50 and mine. It seemed only a little less loud. But that makes sense when you consider that a 5 watt amp is half as loud as a 50 watt amp.

The kit amp that is a mod of the Mojo JTM 45 kit has EL34s. It is the first amp I've owned with EL34s, but I've played other amps with EL34s. They did not "feel" like this amp. I do not agree that it sounds like the EG3 channel either. Maybe it is the EL34s, or maybe it is the tube rectifier. All I know is that the EG3/4 module in my mod 50 head sounds more like a professional tone, while the kit amp behaves in a more unpredictable way. I'd say the kit amp sounds "squishy" or "bouncy," while the mod 50's tone is more full and even. I may be describing the "sag" that is supposed to be experienced with a tube rectifier, but I never experienced this "feel" with a dual rectifier. Frank told me that the difference between a tube and a solid state rectifier is only noticeable with lower power amps, but he seemed to think that it would not be noticable with a 50 watt amp, but only with a 20 watt or 15 watt amp. Bruce measured the output of my kit amp at 45 watts, so I'm not sure its just the tube rectifier. So I don't know what it is, but I can say I've never played anything like it, and I've tried just about every kind of modern amp available, including a 4o watt Marshall combo with EL34s. So I'm going to hazard a guess that it is the combination of the low power, EL34s, and EL34 tube rectifier.