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Nightdare

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Decided to buy a few more tubes to experiment in V1 positions

Bought:
EH 12ax7, Mullard 12ax7. Tung Sol 12ax7 Shuguan, JJ 12ax7 - all high gain selected

EH 12at7 and ay7

For the moment I ended up with
Blackface: EH 12ay7
MashOldano: Mullard
Angel: Tung Sol
(still have 3 other preamps , but the RM4 is the easiest to work with)

I did plunk in a Philips JAN 12at7 in the V1 of my RM4 since I had gain to spare on the modules
Compared to a high gain tube there, removed some compression which remained present even with a 12at7 in a high gain module
(I have tried 12at7 V1 with non HG-selected tubes in the modules before, which did not give me a desired result)

I'm gonna be swapping that Mullard around a while, since it's a 'new' tube to me
already familiar with the other brands
currently I think it's character falls a bit between JJ and Tung Sol

but for now there are still so many roads to travel
Wondering mostly what the tubes can do to my Hafler Triple Giant
(3 dedicated channels of which the lead could use some more mids and less highs and the rhythm could use some more gain)
 
I like the EH in V1 in most pre's until you get into really high gain. That's except for some of the really low gain clean's that I experiment with different vintage tubes and etc.. I usually put the JJ ECC83 in V2 in those same pre's. In the high gainers I like the TungSol.

You mentioned JJ's, but you didn't specify... Are they ECC83S or ECC803S? I like them both. The 803's are especially strong, consistent, and balanced as a general rule. Much more than most other tubes I've tested. The S makes them fairly quiet for a long plate tube. Much the same as a JAN tube. Sometimes I use them in V1 in mid-low gainers. The ECC83's are usually fairly weak, but they are usually decently balanced. They almost always ALL test practically the same.

I look for EH tubes that test really high, but they are usually only 1/4 of them get into the range I'm looking for, and then a lot of those are pretty unbalanced. They are somewhat hard to find. EH 12AX7 are very inconsistent.

Be careful with "high gain selected". Most tube sellers are counting on the fact that you won't have a clue if you get what you pay for. Most of the time you really won't get what you pay for. You're better off just buying random tubes and saving the extra money for a good tube tester (or two LoL)

Just recently I started playing with the Mullard's. The jury is still out on those. They seem OK, but they don't jump out as better than anything else I already am using.
 
I'll agree fully about what a lot of placed sell as "tested", "premium" or "select" gain tubes. They sure don't test that way most of the time on the expensive testers in my shop sadly.

Watch those Mullards in V2 of your modules. Most die instantly or very quickly there. They can't do CF positions in amps.
 
I'm not sure I like the Mullard's. They seem OK, but The JJ 803's I think are probably better. I think anywhere I'd put a Mullard I could probably put an 803. I didn't notice anything especially nice in the tone of them. Nothing bad either but... I only bought 2... So there's that, but I bet the next 10 I'd buy would be the same as these 2. They seem solid enough that they are most likely good examples of what you'd get. I don't think I've put one in V2. I'm not sure I ever would, but it's good to know. I don't see any reason I'd ever put anything in V2 except a JJ or a TS tube.

I've become a bit of a tube snob LoL

On the note of not getting what you pay for... I recently (and I might have posted this in another thread already but...) I put an order in to Tube Depot. I paid almost double for high balanced tubes. The tubes I got weren't any better than any other random tubes I've bought. In other words I paid extra for absolutely nothing. I called the guy and his basic attitude was... yeh, send them back, we have a whole system setup for that. My attitude was.. WTF did I pay you all this extra money? **** pisses me off.

I got a set of matched power tubes once, and one of them was a DOA tube. There was a 2nd tube that was visibly less bright. I had no way to test the tubes. I felt like I was being ripped off, and there wasn't a thing I could do about it. Well.... I'm not the kind of person to allow that kind of **** to happen. So I spent a **** load of money on tube testers and learning how to test tubes. It's been just as crazy an adventure as amp's (which is why I could relate to this thread) GAS applies to Tubes too.

There are people that seem to be all hung up on Hickok testers, and then there are people that are all hung up on some of these modern testers and etc etc. The fact is, you need to test your tubes on ALL of those testers (because each has advantages and disadvantages) and even then, you still can't be 100% sure the tube is even good. In the end it's your ears that tell the real story, but (for me) I like having the testers so that I can at least get the number of tubes I'm listening to down to a minimum. I test tubes, and then I'm like OK here's 4 really nice testing tubes. Then I still have to put them in and listen. Without the testers, forget it. I think out of 10 tubes I probably get 1 that I think is worth using. It's irritating as hell, and it has led to a rather large box of unused tubes.
 
suphuckers said:
I like the EH in V1 in most pre's until you get into really high gain.

Yeah I found EH pretty glassy, though not so bad as the Shuguan
Then again for some reason the chinese hold up a little better at high(er) gain than the EH

You mentioned JJ's, but you didn't specify... Are they ECC83S or ECC803S?

ECC83S
This one is probably gonna end up in my Triple Giant's lead channel
it can definitely use the dark middy character of the tube to remove some fizz and give it a bit more body

Be careful with "high gain selected". Most tube sellers are counting on the fact that you won't have a clue if you get what you pay for. Most of the time you really won't get what you pay for. You're better off just buying random tubes and saving the extra money for a good tube tester (or two LoL)

Yeah it's hard when I only have my ears and my dials,

But when I can get the sweet spot in the amount of gain I like with a an AT7 in the RM4's V1 around 1 o'clock on a module with a HG tube in it
Compared to a normal AX7 in the V1 of the RM4 and a normal AX7 in the module and having the sweet spot at 1 o'clock
I'm willing to think that at least the gain selection is ok

I'm not that weary of current quality, so far the only preamp tube to ever fail on me was a NOS 5751
So much for the coveted status of NOS quality

Just recently I started playing with the Mullard's. The jury is still out on those. They seem OK, but they don't jump out as better than anything else I already am using.

My first impression is a "toned down Tung Sol", which may be good in modules/channels that "Bite" too hard but can't use a JJ's dark and subdued character

Jaded Faith said:
Watch those Mullards in V2 of your modules. Most die instantly or very quickly there. They can't do CF positions in amps.

Thanks for the heads up, though I thought the Tung Sols had this problem (too)?
 
I think it's the EH that Rob doesn't like in V2. In fact I don't think Rob (and he can speak for himself) but I don't think he likes the EH in general. For quality I probably agree, but I like the tone. If one fails I just replace it. Simple enough.

I've never substituted an AT. I've used a few NOS JAN 5157's though.

BTW I recently bought a bunch of NOS tubes off of eBay. The guy swore they were awesome tubes. They were complete junk (16 tubes I had to send back). I have a dozen or so NOS tubes in my box of tricks that tested WOW. I love the tone and etc. Point is... if you can't test them, there's no way to know what kind of junk you're buying. This guy swore up and down those tubes were perfect. He's been "buying and selling tubes for 600000 yrs" etc.. I told him that's the problem. He probably has been selling this junk for years LoL. The tester he was using (and I know what it was) wasn't capable of finding the problems that I saw in those tubes. He still wanted to argue about it. Tubes and people who sell tubes (not all, but most of them) get the hell on my nerves. ;) Ive had a few good deals. The ratio of good to bad is pretty pathetic though, and the reason (as I said) is that not only can't the people selling the tubes properly test them, they are counting on the fact that neither can the person buying them.

Tube buying in general just sucks.

I keep thinking I should sell tubes. The problem is that I wouldn't be able to bring myself to sell the junk tubes. I'd also have to charge $100 for a good tube. I've seen those people doing it. At 1st I didn't understand how/why, but after what I went though, now I get it.

EDIT: ...and I wanted to say (and forgot) that I have found the Chinese tubes to be really strong/consistent and they seem pretty reliable. I just don't like them. If I were going to use them to run a household appliance or something they would be my go to tubes LoL Some people like them though.
 
suphuckers said:
I think it's the EH that Rob doesn't like in V2. In fact I don't think Rob (and he can speak for himself) but I don't think he likes the EH in general. For quality I probably agree, but I like the tone. If one fails I just replace it. Simple enough.

I've never substituted an AT. I've used a few NOS JAN 5157's though.

BTW I recently bought a bunch of NOS tubes off of eBay. The guy swore they were awesome tubes. They were complete junk (16 tubes I had to send back). I have a dozen or so NOS tubes in my box of tricks that tested WOW. I love the tone and etc. Point is... if you can't test them, there's no way to know what kind of junk you're buying. This guy swore up and down those tubes were perfect. He's been "buying and selling tubes for 600000 yrs" etc.. I told him that's the problem. He probably has been selling this junk for years LoL. The tester he was using (and I know what it was) wasn't capable of finding the problems that I saw in those tubes. He still wanted to argue about it. Tubes and people who sell tubes (not all, but most of them) get the hell on my nerves. ;) Ive had a few good deals. The ratio of good to bad is pretty pathetic though, and the reason (as I said) is that not only can't the people selling the tubes properly test them, they are counting on the fact that neither can the person buying them.

Tube buying in general just sucks.

I keep thinking I should sell tubes. The problem is that I wouldn't be able to bring myself to sell the junk tubes. I'd also have to charge $100 for a good tube. I've seen those people doing it. At 1st I didn't understand how/why, but after what I went though, now I get it.

EDIT: ...and I wanted to say (and forgot) that I have found the Chinese tubes to be really strong/consistent and they seem pretty reliable. I just don't like them. If I were going to use them to run a household appliance or something they would be my go to tubes LoL Some people like them though.

Check out my post here: http://mtsforum.grailtone.com/viewtopic.php?t=19525

It's not that I dislike any tubes, there are just manufacturing quirks you need to be aware of. Mullard is simply a name and one that was purchased by New Sensor. There is absolutely nothing in common with the tubes Mullard made decades ago and the one branded as such today.

There is a major list of concerns with New Sensor preamp tube products (their brands include Sovtek, Tung Sol, EH, Mullard and Gold Lion). The other BIG issue that most consumers are not aware of is that they actually take back returned product and simply recirculate the bad stuff in with their inventory. That is appalling and terrible business practice. If you ever buy any of these brands, I suggest buying through a retailer that has honest and reputable testing procedures and a fair return policy.

As for paying for premium tubes, don't. I buy between 1000-3000 tubes a year for my business depending on what projects are going on. I see a large sample size and use Maxi-Matchers in-house before any product hits my shelf. I find about 60%+ of what I buy as standard fare is any combination of either high gain, balanced or low noise. I also see many customer tubes come through the shop where they paid a premium for stuff that simply doesn't test as advertized.

That's the gamble buying tubes and it totally sucks for the average consumer. It's like finding a good doctor/mechanic/market. When you get a good provider you can trust it's wise to stick with them and remember that you often get what you pay for.
 
Sup, JF

What is your experience with offerings from "Tube Selectors" like GT, Ruby and TAD for instance

Seeing the issues you come across in tubes, are they still a force that enables the consumer to recieve a 'good product'
Or are they simply selling BS and Marketing?
 
Not a fan in general. GT and TAD tubes test quiet, but I also see them often have 5-10% less gain than my standard base value for average. Less gain means less noise by default because they amplify less. I also find them overpriced. Also for the record, the GT Mullard is one of the worst preamp tubes ever manufactured quality-wise.

Ruby I like. My biggest knock here is they aren't well insulated often and susceptible to pinging or microphonics. Good contact with tube shields help a lot here. Gain is generally better than average but their HG designation is usually lower than my standards.
 
So Rob In your opinion, what's the best available new 12ax7 / ECC83 tubes for my M4s and modules? Or should I be looking for some less gainy 12at7 / ECC81 for some of the cleaner modules?
 
By far the best brand of preamp tubes when judged by gain, self noise, heater noise and microphonics are JJ. Nothing but Sovtek come close to them. For consumers, the JJ's sold from Eurotubes are consistently off the charts good.

A lot of the Chinese tubes are very good but do have a tendency for pinging noise in the glass. A good shield or dampers fix that most of the time. Do note a lot of the rebranders (GT, TAD & Ruby come to mind) Chinese offerings are typically of worse quality than if you buy standard Shuguang "China" labeled tubes. I believe that's because the rebranders get the leftover stuff.

The quality for the money of these two are about as good as it gets right now. Only buy New Sensor company preamp tubes if you trust your supplier (Tube Depot and Tube Store are safe bets). The issues do not impact their power tubes fortunately.
 
Hernando04 said:
So Rob In your opinion, what's the best available new 12ax7 / ECC83 tubes for my M4s and modules? Or should I be looking for some less gainy 12at7 / ECC81 for some of the cleaner modules?

Look to 5751's for gain reduction from 12AX7's. The other tubes you mentioned are direct replacements, but have different impedance and circuit requirements. They certainly work, but are not ideal to hear the circuit as intended. A 5751 (JJ makes a killer one for the money) or lower gain pickups are better solutions.
 
Jaded Faith said:
By far the best brand of preamp tubes when judged by gain, self noise, heater noise and microphonics are JJ.

A lot of the Chinese tubes are very good but do have a tendency for pinging noise in the glass.

(Tube Depot and Tube Store are safe bets). The issues do not impact their power tubes fortunately.

I'd back that up as well. I've tested soooo many tubes in the last few months (I'm sure not as many as Rob but..) I've been referred to as a "tube fanatic", and people have hinted that I'm out of my brains for the amount of thought and time I've put into tubes.

You can buy a JJ (without owning a tube tester), and you're much more likely to get a decent tube. They are very consistent. They aren't my favorite tubes, but they are good tubes, and they are a safe bet.

I really don't like the tone of the Chinese tubes (Ruby tubes are Chinese tubes in case someone didn't know that), and I bet it has something to do with what Rob was saying. They are consistent/stable and usually high output though.

The Tubes I just got from the Tube depot (..and it was a fairly large box of tubes) were ALL good tubes, so I don't doubt they are a good place to buy tubes. I think the extra money I spent on high balanced etc went right down the toilet though.

My recommendation to the average guy would be... Go to Tube Depot, buy some JJ's, and don't bother with the extra $$ for the better tubes (that's a scam). ..and I bet Rob would agree. Yes Rob?

Nightdare said:
Yeah I found EH pretty glassy, though not so bad as the Shuguan
Then again for some reason the chinese hold up a little better at high(er) gain than the EH

You really need to find the right EH tubes. Like I was saying only 1/4 test in the right range for me, and out of those... only very few are balanced. It's probably 1/10 tubes that meets with what I'm looking for. So yeah, most of them just go in the box LoL. Without a tester I'd probably just stick with the JJ's

ECC83S
This one is probably gonna end up in my Triple Giant's lead channel
it can definitely use the dark middy character of the tube to remove some fizz and give it a bit more body

..and if you haven't tried those 803S you should def give them a go. They have much higher output usually then the 83's. They have a nice full/warmer tone. I use them in V1 on some lower gain modules (because I have other tubes I use in my high gainers) but they would probably work well in a high gainer too. The long plate tubes have a more full sound but they were usually noisier. The short plate tubes were designed to be quieter, but the tone isn't the same. The S on the 803S means it's spiral wound (Like JAN tube) and it cuts down on the noise. Think Old RCA 12AX7 tube, but quiet and more gain.
 
Rob,
Thanks for the reply. So much misinformation out there, it's good to hear it from someone who has real world, everyday experience. On a related note and I'll stop picking your brain, Is the Orange tube tester worth my money? I noticed you upgraded after awhile, but of course your needs are beyond what most guitarists need.
 
Hernando04, (You didn't ask me, but here's my 2 cents...)

You can't just rely on one tube tester, and I don't care what tube tester it is. I test all of my tubes on several different tube testers. Often with different results. Some of the biggest problems I've had with buying tubes is... Guys who have a modern electronic tube tester that can't see problems that my $100 50 yr old EICO can easily see. Problems that I've verified on 3 different testers, and that $1000 tester has no clue exist.

Is that $1000 tester useful? Probably. If I were just looking to test tubes for my amp (and I wasn't a psycho about it like I am) I'd try to find a really nice EICO 666/667. They are cheap (Like $100), and they work well enough to get you in the ballpark with your tubes. Then you can use your ears after that. You gotta find one in really good shape though. You can buy about 8 of those for the price of 1 Orange tester... so...
 
Jaded Faith said:

BTW Rob, I read that one a long time ago and it was very helpful.

Because of that thread I put the TS's in V1 on (most of) my High Gainers, but I still use a JJ in V2. I probably have a JJ in V2 on every one of my modules as a matter of fact. I never had a TS fail over there. In fact the only tube I ever had fail over there was a JJ, but I took your word for it, and just always put the JJ over there.
 
Hernando04 said:
Rob,
Thanks for the reply. So much misinformation out there, it's good to hear it from someone who has real world, everyday experience. On a related note and I'll stop picking your brain, Is the Orange tube tester worth my money? I noticed you upgraded after awhile, but of course your needs are beyond what most guitarists need.

Happy to help! My daughter is a month old and I needed to be on "Daddy Duty"for a few hours, so I killed the time here while she slept.

I sell a lot of tubes, but I am not what I would say "in the business of selling tubes." I make a living on service, repair and modification. I have no need to sell my customers on marketing hype and snake oil. My needs for tubes are quality, consistency and reliability. Tone is very important to me, but not at the expense of exposure to excessive failure rates on the products I sell. After all, if I fix your amp and then the tubes die in a month, are you going to blame the tubes or my work? :lol:

I upgraded to the Maxi-Matchers three months ago and will never look back. Like you said, my needs are significantly different than an average guitarist's. I can get data far beyond what a player needs. I can also audition preamp tubes to listen to them for just the noise caused by the tube itself, exclusive of the noise generated by an amplifier. That is a priceless tool for me, particularly when evaluating old and expensive NOS tubes. The $2000+ investment has already paid for itself here.

For the average player with a collection of amps or an interest in tube rolling, the Orange VT-1000 is all you need to make informed decisions and load your amps up with the right tubes for the job. I actually sold my old one to a good customer from this board with a respectable studio. I'm certain it will serve him well.
 
suphuckers said:
Jaded Faith said:

BTW Rob, I read that one a long time ago and it was very helpful.

Because of that thread I put the TS's in V1 on (most of) my High Gainers, but I still use a JJ in V2. I probably have a JJ in V2 on every one of my modules as a matter of fact. I never had a TS fail over there. In fact the only tube I ever had fail over there was a JJ, but I took your word for it, and just always put the JJ over there.

Cool deal, glad it was of use. FWIW, Tung Sols will last there. Just know they will have a shorter life. The big no-no is the new Mullards. I have seen over a dozen here and in customer reports die instantly in a CF position. Not worth losing the $18+ for an experiment.
 
Rob, One of the modern electronic tube testers I was referring to earlier was a maxi tester. I had a guy sell me some pretty horrible tubes. Tubes that he swore were perfectly good tubes. The tubes were complete junk. So bad in fact that after I put them in my amp, because he insisted that I try them in the amp, they completely broke up at about half gain, and made my amp sound like it had 15 loose wires in it. He really seemed like a decent honest guy, and wasn't purposely trying to rip me off. He was using a maxi tester. Beware my friend.
 
suphuckers said:
Rob, One of the modern electronic tube testers I was referring to earlier was a maxi tester. I had a guy sell me some pretty horrible tubes. Tubes that he swore were perfectly good tubes. The tubes were complete junk. So bad in fact that after I put them in my amp, because he insisted that I try them in the amp, they completely broke up at about half gain, and made my amp sound like it had 15 loose wires in it. He really seemed like a decent honest guy, and wasn't purposely trying to rip me off. He was using a maxi tester. Beware my friend.

I completely trust mine and I think knowing how to use it and interpret data from it is the key. It's not a "dumb" tester that simply tells you good/bad. You need to understand what it gives you. I am good friends with it's designer as well, so if I have any questionable results Peter is a call away.

That said, there are a lot of shady characters selling old tubes they swear are good and tested. It's like swimming in shark-infested waters!

I have a shelf in the shop full of killer vintage test gear, from scopes to tube testers. There's a place for it all, but the Maxi-Matcher is the way to go for business-level results.
 
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