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Csiniawski
RM20


Joined: 01 Aug 2016
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 2:27 am    Post subject: Hello glad to be here! Reply with quote

Ive been lurking a bit as I have been reading lots of great info on here.

Its time to come out of the shadows and introduce myself and also let ya know I am going to be joining the club.

Ive played about 20 years and like most have bought and sold more gear than I am happy to admit. I moved to Austin about 2 yrs ago with one of the many reasons being I love local live music and wanted to get back on stage after a long hiatus. I have done so and I am so happy I did.

My Dad had a bad stroke in April and ive had to temporarily go back to chicago to take care of him. While I am here I decided it is time to clean up the outrageous toy collection both to make money to help him and to refocus on my gigging and finding a band while I am actually away from the scene.

I will have a list soon of stuff I want to sell and I am keeping a couple of the amps I built myself but everything else is going and I am going to settle down with this:

Randall RM4 or Egnater M4 (leaning here....i am curious with this new synergy line will it become more important to get an M4 for dual channel future proofing?) , a line 6 Helix (2 buddies have said its the real deal), randall rt2/50 (i am ears for other suggestions but like the idea of the 2 power tube types. Also am I able to drop this down even more by pulling 2 power tubes? My original goal in this quest was to find around a,20 to 25 watt amp since thats truly all ive EVER needed at clubs...but as I researched this setup blew me away) and then I will create a variety of cab/speaker combos over time as I think its the 2nd most important piece. Ive actually fallen in love with 1x12s lately and have considered taking a 4x12 and wiring it in such a way I could make it 4 different 1x12s or maybe 2 2x12s.

So anyways thats a plan and once i get that moving i wil be researching the modules and mods (i love diy).

I would love to hear any thoughts about my crazy endeavor as well as just some hellos from everyone. If anyone is selling some of this or csn point me to good plsces to look or more resources (or if you even have a better idea about a 20 to 25 watt setup) let me know. I look forward to hearing from you!

-Chet
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webrthomson
Donating Member


Joined: 01 May 2012
Posts: 363
Location: Glasgow (UK)

PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 3:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey - Welcome, sounds like you have come to the right place!

If you are lookig for a smaller modular head Synergy were talking about a one module head with it's own clean channel at about 20 watts or so:

https://www.facebook.com/SynergyAmps

So with 1 synergy modules this would be a 3 channel amp - might be what you are looking for?
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Capt_Tippy
RM100


Joined: 19 Jul 2016
Posts: 240

PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 5:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Chet,

Good luck with all of your plans.

As far as the speaker cabs, have you seen this?

http://www.carltonguitars.com.au/resources/docs/TL806_builders_plans.pdf

Rewiring the 4x12's will change the tone, but it'll still suck.

Better to take the speakers out and put them in one of those. (IMO)
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trimix
RM100


Joined: 03 Dec 2009
Posts: 159
Location: Tucson AZ

PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Welcome! Good time to get in to MTS, there are some massive collections being liquidated in anticipation of Synergy.
If you want to use the Helix both before the preamp and in the loop via the four cable method, confirm the Helix can handle line level signal at the loop insert point. The preamp output is not pedal level, it's rack unit line level. Not familiar with the Helix gain staging myself.
I agree about speakers giving the greatest variety of tones but also that 4x12s do not work well when used one driver at a time. One speaker being damped by three passive radiators is a sludgy mess. I prefer using 4x12s atm, but have four 1x12s for mixing and matching other speakers for recording.
I spent a few hours yesterday rolling tubes in my rig, what a difference it can make to the tone of a module!


_________________
Randall- RM4, Clean, 1086, Mr Scary, Grail
Egnater- SL2X D/S
Salvation- TwinFace, MarkUs
Jaded Faith- Twox, XTC, Custom RVerb
Sacred Groove- Custom SL+
Mesa/Boogie- Stereo Simul-Class 395
(2) Randall 4x12- X-pattern Vintage 30/G12T-75
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lintycreep
RM100


Joined: 21 Nov 2012
Posts: 177
Location: PA

PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Capt_Tippy wrote:
Hi Chet,

Good luck with all of your plans.

As far as the speaker cabs, have you seen this?

http://www.carltonguitars.com.au/resources/docs/TL806_builders_plans.pdf

Rewiring the 4x12's will change the tone, but it'll still suck.

Better to take the speakers out and put them in one of those. (IMO)



Hahahahaha!!!! I knew it!!!!

Oh and welcome aboard Csiniawski!!!!
_________________
SM: Masholdano, Baseman, Camerock,
SG: Fisch
Stock duels: COD
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Csiniawski
RM20


Joined: 01 Aug 2016
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well there seems to be a consensus that my cabinet idea sucks. It was s good theory anyways! I would have figured it out eventually.



You have given me lots more to think about which is why I am here so thank you for that! I am certain I will be back with another iteration as soon as I digest and formulate.


Thank you for all of the responses and I will talk with you soon. Hope everyone had a great Monday
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Capt_Tippy
RM100


Joined: 19 Jul 2016
Posts: 240

PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Csiniawski wrote:
Well there seems to be a consensus that my cabinet idea sucks. It was s good theory anyways! I would have figured it out eventually.



You have given me lots more to think about which is why I am here so thank you for that! I am certain I will be back with another iteration as soon as I digest and formulate.


Thank you for all of the responses and I will talk with you soon. Hope everyone had a great Monday


To add to what I said.

The main reason I commented, I still have a 4x12 sitting over there against the wall that I wired into 2 2x12's a quarter of a century ago. I since wired it back to a 4x12, but it still has the hole in the side for the 2nd input jack.

I played through it like that for a couple of years...

So maybe you can benefit from the time I spent experimenting.

Back when, I had myself convinced that I was doing something. All I was doing was drilling a hole in a perfectly good cabinet, and wasting time.

These days (at home) I run a 1x15 and a 1x12 that I built myself. They're loud enough to make your ears bleed if turned up enough. When I go away from home I just use a 1x12.

What's going to have the biggest effect on the tone (when it comes to speakers/cabinets) is the type of speaker and the design of the cabinet it's installed in. Not how many speakers you have or how they are wired. Wiring has an effect, but its much less of an effect than the things I'm talking about here. You don't need 4 speakers (no matter how you wire them) to sound great and/or be loud. Plus screw carrying them.

In addition to my 1x12's and 1x15's, I built a 2x12 by doubling that design and making the cab twice as wide. It sounds OK, but it doesn't sound any better than 1 of the 1x12's or the 1x15's. Probably not as good if I had to give an opinion on it. Its also much heavier to carry, but it does fit under the head better. I've also tried/built lots of other different designs of cabinets. The 806 IMO is by far superior to anything else I've seen/heard

Also the reason I run a 1x15 and a 1x12 instead of just 2 1x12's is, 2 of the same cabinet sound pretty close if not exactly the same as 1 single cabinet by itself. In fact if I run 2 1x12's sometimes I can't tell for sure if both cabinets are hooked up. Also people have it stuck in their heads that a 15" speaker is only for basses, but that's just wrong. The 15 pushes a lot more air, and sounds even better than the 12 (for certain things). If you play really fast, I suppose there's a chance the 15 could lag a bit, but although I've read people discussing that, I don't think I've ever heard it happen in the real world.

The speaker itself, the volume(size) of the cabinet, and the port design, are what's important. How its wired takes a huge back seat to all of the above. You can have 14 speakers, and if they are the same speakers, you can wire them 27 different ways and it'll (mostly) just be a waste of your time and energy.

I've also seen a lot of people talk about swapping out 2 speakers of a 4x12 cab, and I've tried some of that along the way too. Different speakers add different things, but I've never heard a 4x12 that sounds as good as one of those 806 1x12 cabs (and those only have room for one speaker). "Thump" comes from the speaker and the port. It doesn't come from multiplying speakers into a 4x12.

My advice, invest your money in 1 really great 8ohm 12" speaker and put it in a great 1x12 cabinet. Best use of time/money. Then once you have every other aspect of your tone figured out, if you're bored you can waste a Saturday screwing with speakers and cabinets.

Hopefully this post will save you and others hours/days/weeks/months of wasted time hah.
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Csiniawski
RM20


Joined: 01 Aug 2016
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2016 3:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thats kinda where I am headed because Ive realized a 1x whatever sounds just as good or better than a heavy ass cabinet especially if you are miced.....you only mic 1 speaker. My thought was with all of the modularity ill have I can have 1 cab with 4 different speakers and/or if I was clever with wiring and ohms I could have different varieties. I didnt consider the fact that the rest of the speakers would end up being a hole in the cab when they werent working. The idea was good but not thought through!

Ive got a good variety of things I can experiment with. Long ago I was looking at building some cabs and MDF was the thing at the time. Is that still true? Are there any other materials I should look into? I have about 3 months to do all of my experimenting before I head back to Austin so I should be able to get a few options built in that time!


So with the new synergy stuff coming out...why are folks so interested in changing away from the MTS? Is there a link that explains all of the new goodies? In other words what will I be missing out on if I do get an M4 or RM4? Also I am thinking becauae of my desire to go with the helix will I lretty much need to look at the RM4 because of effects loops?

Finally, there have been dozens of the discussions about why the Egatner is better vs Randall and after consideration the only thing about that discussion that sticks out to me is the difference in build quality. Is there a list somewhere that shows the difference in parts used or is it mostly the handwired argument? Are there things like output transforner or certain caps in the Randall that stick out as being limiting factors that I could easily replace to improve?

I tried posting in the classifieds yesterday since I am ready to start shopping but it says I am not authorized. How do I fix that?

Thanks for the great responses this is all of the stuff I need to know right on point. Its cool to find a group who is passionate about this stuff too as it says alot about the product. Talk with yas soon.

Chet
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Capt_Tippy
RM100


Joined: 19 Jul 2016
Posts: 240

PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2016 6:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All of my MTS heads/amps are Randall. 60% of my modules are Salvation, 35% are JF, and %5 misc. others. I don't own any dual stuff. I have a few Randall modules, but they are just sitting in a box.

I've been reading talk about the coming of Synergy for more years than I can remember. I'm sure it will be good stuff, but I doubt I'll be trading in my rig to buy it.

Never had any problems with my Randall gear, but I also don't gig a lot these days.

Good Luck w whatever you choose to do!

Its funny you say about being able to do all that w your 4x12 cabinet. My original idea was to make my cabinets modular. Then I could have a 1x12 or put 2 of them together and make a 2x12 or 4 of them and make a 4x12 and I was going to put locking tabs on them so I could lock them together and all that... IMO its a big waste of time Wink

As far as the MDF. I use Oak Plywood for my cab's but you can use Birch or MDF and etc. The main thing about that is just make sure you build it solid. You could spend forever trying to make awesome joints and all that, but really if you just glue AND screw them, as long as your cuts are straight, they will be great. MDF doesn't screw together as well as plywood, but I've seen many MDF cabinets that sound just as good as a plywood cabinet.

It blows my mind that people pay so much for cabinets. All you need is a $40 piece of plywood, a good saw, and some black spray paint. You can build one start to finish on a Saturday. I've had many Name Brand cabinet's. My cabinets that I make are 100% better, and way cheaper.
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Csiniawski
RM20


Joined: 01 Aug 2016
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2016 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is exactly what I was thinking. Sorry you had to waste your time to find it was a failure but thanks for saving mine.

It really is easy to build this stuff. I could even make them look all awesme if I buy some Tolex. I actually do love the tannish color Fender sometimes uses plus it will stick out if someone tries to acquire my gear illegally.

Great minds think alike I guess.

Another thing that came to mind after you destroyed my lifes greatest idea (lol) by saying my idea sucks is if there was some way to make equal sized 1x or 2x cabinets but then (again with clever wiring and some kind of clever way of attaching them) combining them if ncessary. I coukd have for example a 1x12 greenback and a 1x12 blue alnico that on their own sound sweet but if necessary I coukd hook then together to get something else or even have a stereo setup. Same with a 2x12 and i could add another set of 1x12s on top (of course theyd have wheels) if I neeed more speakers or a different variety.

Do you think that having a 4x12 makes that much of s difference when the volume inside the cab comes into play and all 4 speakers sre working in unison? Only thing is that not all of the speakers are usually miced on stage at smaller clubs.


One thing I am definitely going to do is come up with either an easy way if posdible or just a msnual way if necessary of making my cabinets switchable between open and closed back as you can totally hear the difference on that even on recordings from your favorite guitarists.
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Capt_Tippy
RM100


Joined: 19 Jul 2016
Posts: 240

PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2016 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll put it this way. Amp X has Z amount of power (Divide it up how you want, or getting more/other amps is an option too Wink ). ...but, until you push speaker A to it's max abilities (which includes it's ability to push air, which translates to db levels) speaker B is pointless (on amp 1), unless speaker B is a completely different speaker/cabinet in some way. In that case since it's a different speaker or cabinet, it'll add something different to the tone. I have speakers configured A B C D, but I rarely use C and never use D. Always use A and sometimes B. 4x12's IMO are stupid and silly. They go back to a time when Judas Priest used to put a WALL of them on stage, but... pretty much stupid. You could mic 3 different speakers if you really wanted to get that specific of a sound.. I'm sure "some" people do that. Probably not your random guy playing at a corner bar on a Saturday though lmao. Anyways I'm trying not to get too technical on this haha, and it's just about gotten to the limit of that. Sooo Smile
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Csiniawski
RM20


Joined: 01 Aug 2016
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 2:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah I suppose youre right about that too. Oh well, fun to talk some shop with someone. I'm full of ideas but never said they were all good. However it's always good to get them out there because they might inspire some others.

Anyways, I'm actively in the market for my setup now so if anyone knows where to find some of this stuff or is thinking of selling please let me know. I have one guy on the facebook page who is "thinking" of selling his setup but until I get some more info and some final answers I'm not going to get my hopes up.

Talk with ya'll soon!
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CrunchBunch
RM50


Joined: 28 Oct 2015
Posts: 92

PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 3:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Different types of speakers used at the same time can give you a really nice sound. I've got a Road King 2x12 that uses a vintage 30 in a sealed box on one side and Black Shadow 90 on the other side with an open back. Each speaker is great on its own and gives you two quite different voicings, but with a stereo power amp you can drive both and blend the amounts they contribute to the total sound. Definitely a nice-to-have option.
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Capt_Tippy
RM100


Joined: 19 Jul 2016
Posts: 240

PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CrunchBunch wrote:
Different types of speakers used at the same time can give you a really nice sound. I've got a Road King 2x12 that uses a vintage 30 in a sealed box on one side and Black Shadow 90 on the other side with an open back. Each speaker is great on its own and gives you two quite different voicings, but with a stereo power amp you can drive both and blend the amounts they contribute to the total sound. Definitely a nice-to-have option.


Definitely agree with you CrunchBunch, and I bet that combo sounds pretty nice.

Have you tried swapping the speakers and putting the Shadow in the closed back side?
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CrunchBunch
RM50


Joined: 28 Oct 2015
Posts: 92

PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 6:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No I haven't given that a go.

Those TL806 plans you posted up look good. I'm pretty keen to build some of those. A 1x12 with a separate RM20 head would be a lot easier on my back.

Has anyone experimented with some of those Neodymium magnet type speakers? Celestion G12 Century Vintage 60W or maybe the Eminence Tonkerlite?
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