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SYN2 sag control, Syn2 vs M4
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blacksun
RM100


Joined: 02 Oct 2011
Posts: 382
Location: Wherever there's a guitar shop

PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:56 am    Post subject: SYN2 sag control, Syn2 vs M4 Reply with quote

Hi,

Debating whether I should get a syn2 or just be happy with my M4 armada. I'm a rack guy, I have no need for an extra two channels setup added to the fx loop of a head.
Yet of course always GASsing towards something new Smile and I'm wondering if a syn2 would bring much more to the table. The only feature would be perhaps the sag control feature, designed by Mr Fryette. I have this Fryette valvulator gp/di with the sag control and I don't think it is by no means a game changer..

Does the syn2 sound "better"?
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Capt_Tippy
RM100


Joined: 19 Jul 2016
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sag, I have sag feature in my effects loop controller... I also have it on a few pedals... highly over rated. I'm actually confused why its even in the synergy stuff... it does s*&t all not much in my effects loop controller.. I also have it on the power supply.. I've tried it a buncha times... wouldn't keep or get rid of a piece of equipment based on a sag control alone.
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Moral of the story, buy extra tubes, and don't pay up charges. Good luck, cause tube buying is a crap shoot.

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forensbro
RM20


Joined: 14 Nov 2017
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Location: Shreveport, LA

PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

New to the forum and trying to get my 10 posts in. Has anybody upgraded their RM4 to accept dual mods and then tried any Synergy mods?
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Jaded Faith
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Joined: 14 Jul 2007
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Location: Hamilton, NJ

PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The sag functionality in the Synergy hardware would best be described in guitarist speak like a compressor-type of effect. I find it effective. As to if it's something you will like or use is a personal decision.

One strong argument to grab the Synergy hardware is to take advantage of the cathode sensing tech when using Synergy modules. Obviously if you don't plan to buy the modules it's not as lucrative.

As Paul noted, my shop is now offering his dual channel upgrades. I am installing a kit right now in an RM100 and it works as advertised.
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blacksun
RM100


Joined: 02 Oct 2011
Posts: 382
Location: Wherever there's a guitar shop

PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

With increased sag = increased compression, as if lack of enough power reduces the output signal amplitude of stronger input signals?

Beside the cathode thing, are there any other structural differences in the hardware making a Syn2, with say a fantastic JFM800 module sound better than an M4 with the same high class modded module?
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Capt_Tippy
RM100


Joined: 19 Jul 2016
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

blacksun wrote:
With increased sag = increased compression, as if lack of enough power reduces the output signal amplitude of stronger input signals?

Beside the cathode thing, are there any other structural differences in the hardware making a Syn2, with say a fantastic JFM800 module sound better than an M4 with the same high class modded module?


I didn't build this amp blacksun (so I'm not 100% sure what they did in there), but true sag is supposed to cause the sound to become more organic due to variances in the output. Its not actually (supposed to be) constant reduced output as much as inconsistent variable output. Its basically supposed to emulate a failing component, that.... sometimes puts out its expected power and sometimes doesn't. Or emulate a crazy inconsistent house power. ..and not to peck a fight w Rob, but in a lot of ways that's the exact opposite of compression. Compression seeks to suppress and control a tone, sag is completely out of control.. that's kind of the point. I mean when you turn the sag down the amp may start to sound more compressed, but that would (should be) due to the sag being turned off, and not a function of the sag itself. In other words the amp would have to be very compressed sounding on its own. Turning off the sag would make that more evident. ...and I guess you could stretch the universe and call that a reverse compression setting or something weird lmao

..and I don't own one of these to check, but its very conceivable that its wired in a way that turning it up turns it off. Turning it down lowers the power. Thereby giving the impression that as you turn it up (which is actually down) you're increasing some kind of compression... anyways

IMO (which is just mine and I'm entitled to it) is that its kind of weird/silly and borderline/questionably/arguably useless to have it on this amp.

The only thing I can think is "maybe" and I'm making guesses out of my ass on this statement, but.. maybe the amp sounded way too "unhappy" for lack of a better word when they 1st built it, and they put that sag control in there to correct it. Who knows? Certainly not me.

A tube amp, due to all kinds of variables, is already pretty inconsistent, and that's why it sounds better than a SS amp.

They put sag on stuff like pedals because pedals use diodes instead of tubes, and sag makes them sound more like tube amps..

Try to make a tube amp sound more like a tube amp? Ok why not? lmao

..but hey, there's a good chance I'm completely wrong Laughing
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Moral of the story, buy extra tubes, and don't pay up charges. Good luck, cause tube buying is a crap shoot.

You're correct. I probably have no idea what I'm talking about. I'm not even sure why I bothered to say anything in the 1st place.
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Rising Farce
Lynch Box


Joined: 02 Feb 2009
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Location: Gamecock Country

PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jaded Faith wrote:
As Paul noted, my shop is now offering his dual channel upgrades. I am installing a kit right now in an RM100 and it works as advertised.


This is great news. I was interested in having the upgrade performed, but didn't want to entrust the job to a non-MTS-savvy tech.
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Capt_Tippy
RM100


Joined: 19 Jul 2016
Posts: 284

PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ha, Yeh just went and read the manual.. Here's a funny quote...

Quote:
SAG - Under license from Steven Fryette Designs, the SAG knob mimics the voltage sag of a tube amplifier. This effect is subtle and is really a “feel” thing. It is recommended that you adjust the knob to level where the LED just comes on with heavy guitar pick attack.


Funny....

So is Synergy actually a tube amp? Or is it a mimicerex? LMAO
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Moral of the story, buy extra tubes, and don't pay up charges. Good luck, cause tube buying is a crap shoot.

You're correct. I probably have no idea what I'm talking about. I'm not even sure why I bothered to say anything in the 1st place.
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MarcoR
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It is recommended that you adjust the knob to level where the LED just comes on with heavy guitar pick attack.


Because if you turn it any higher, it will sound like utter crap...

True story.
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Capt_Tippy
RM100


Joined: 19 Jul 2016
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 1:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarcoR wrote:
Quote:
It is recommended that you adjust the knob to level where the LED just comes on with heavy guitar pick attack.


Because if you turn it any higher, it will sound like utter crap...

True story.


"utter crap". Can I get a more descriptive/specific analysis Marco? Sounds like you're confirming my guess I made out of my ass. ...and now I'm curious

Is it like almost a clipping/overloaded kind of "utter crap"?
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Moral of the story, buy extra tubes, and don't pay up charges. Good luck, cause tube buying is a crap shoot.

You're correct. I probably have no idea what I'm talking about. I'm not even sure why I bothered to say anything in the 1st place.
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shortlife
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Joined: 27 Sep 2016
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Location: Finland

PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So regardless of the sag feature , is there any difference in sound quality between the old gear and the Synergy hardware?
I was hoping at lest that it would be lower noise.
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MarcoR
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 6:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Capt_Tippy wrote:

Is it like almost a clipping/overloaded kind of "utter crap"?


No, it's trying to give the feel of an amp starved of power. It's not clipping, it's more like sucking the juice away. So if you turn it up any more than when the LED starts to light up, the volume lowers, the sound collapses; it's like the opposite of bloom.

Quote:
So regardless of the sag feature , is there any difference in sound quality between the old gear and the Synergy hardware?
I was hoping at lest that it would be lower noise.


I think the cathode sensing with the selectable cathode bias on the new modules is a great new feature. You can really dial in the modules for the feel you want with different guitars.

There is a lot of connectivity options, they did a great job covering many possible routing configurations. It's extremely well built. As far as noise, my M4 wasn't noisy and neither its the SYN2. There is a ground lift if needed.

Last, the speaker emulation is surprisingly good if you want to do some silent recording.
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Capt_Tippy
RM100


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarcoR wrote:
Capt_Tippy wrote:

Is it like almost a clipping/overloaded kind of "utter crap"?


No, it's trying to give the feel of an amp starved of power. It's not clipping, it's more like sucking the juice away. So if you turn it up any more than when the LED starts to light up, the volume lowers, the sound collapses; it's like the opposite of bloom.


uhmmmm Yuk? Yikes? WTF? Which one applies best?

You prolly just don't know how to dial it in Marco Wink

In fact you prolly shouldn't even own an amp lmao (This is OF COURSE a joke)
_________________
Moral of the story, buy extra tubes, and don't pay up charges. Good luck, cause tube buying is a crap shoot.

You're correct. I probably have no idea what I'm talking about. I'm not even sure why I bothered to say anything in the 1st place.
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MarcoR
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Capt_Tippy wrote:

uhmmmm Yuk? Yikes? WTF? Which one applies best?

You prolly just don't know how to dial it in Marco Wink

In fact you prolly shouldn't even own an amp lmao (This is OF COURSE a joke)


Hahaha!!! I know how to dial it in... 100% counter clockwise sounds great!
Joking aside, setting to where the led just starts to light is fine when going direct to the DAW. With a decent real power section it's totally not needed. Curious how it would work with the Seymour Duncan Powerstage 800.
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Capt_Tippy
RM100


Joined: 19 Jul 2016
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarcoR wrote:

Hahaha!!! I know how to dial it in... 100% counter clockwise sounds great!


Good info Marco.

Id actually really like to know what the intention was.

Probably never get that information.

Good to know you can at least turn it off LoL

MarcoR wrote:
setting to where the led just starts to light is fine when going direct to the DAW


So you're saying it's "fine", but do you use it? or still keep it turned full counterclockwise?
_________________
Moral of the story, buy extra tubes, and don't pay up charges. Good luck, cause tube buying is a crap shoot.

You're correct. I probably have no idea what I'm talking about. I'm not even sure why I bothered to say anything in the 1st place.
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