Dokken Tooth and Nail Sound - Grail or Mr. Scary?

I have a Lynch box combo and also a Mr. Scary module. Here's the deal, with the gain at around 10 o'clock and everything else at around noon this module provides a pretty darn good early Dokken sound (i.e., Tooth and Nail). I'm very happy with it but can do I better with the Grail module, especially for solos?

Thanks!

I thought that Tooth and Nail was a SS Randall. I know that George rocked those for a while anyway. I would guess that Mr Scary would be closer but still a far cry from that tone. The Grail is based on Lynch's recto tone.

Lynch did use SS Randalls to record the album. However if you get a hold of a brahma and boost it with a tube screamer you'll get the tone you are looking for.

I'd go with the Plexi myself. But I voted Mr. Scary.

Brahma

Julia said:

Brahma

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I'd love to check one of those out some day...

I got my SL+ from vindaloo yesterday. He did the JCM 800 mod on it, and while I've never owned a JCM 800, it definitely has that flavor. Probably a little "gainier", but otherwise pretty close. I screwed around with it quite a while, and found that the best sound I was getting was when I had the gain at about 10:00-11:00, and hit it with a Boss Super OD, with the gain at 9:00, and the level at 3:00. WOW! I did the same thing with the Plexi, and also got great results. I tried to fins a sweet spot with my MXR CAE Clean Boost/OD, but at the end of the day, the $50 Boss pedal sounded better to me. Al bit noisier, but it nialed 80's tone like nothing I've owned before.

As far as the SL+ vs. Mr Scary - very different voicings, yet still similar. Odd description for sure, but very true. The Mr Scary is darker and a bit more dynamic, but lacking the low end the SL+ has. I dial back the low end on all my modules though - I don't like my amp to "thud". I find bass-heavy EQ to just seem flubby, no matter how "tight" you perceive it to be. I try to find my power in the mids.

tehuk said:

Lynch did use SS Randalls to record the album. However if you get a hold of a brahma and boost it with a tube screamer you'll get the tone you are looking for.

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Sounds real interesting. I'll have to give that a shot, assuming I can get my hands on a brahma. However I'm not sure what to do for the tube screamer.

It looks like nowadays Lynch has a Cusack tube screamer which is not supposed to change your EQ. As opposed to, say, an Ibanez tube screamer which will put the mids into Stevie Ray Vaughn territory -which is awesome but I'm not sure how it would handle this This Tooth and Nail tone hunt. I don't think those Cusack pedals were around that era. Comments appreciated.

I thought that his "tone" on T&N was a little thin. His playing was unquestionably brilliant, but it was a little sterile, in part to a LOT of effects use. While he was endorsing Randall at that time, he was (even then) one of the biggest gear whores on the planet. I know he used Randall, but I'll bet there was a lot of gear in the studio at that time. He even said they used "A whole lot of things" during the album recording.

DaGuy said:

Sounds real interesting. I'll have to give that a shot, assuming I can get my hands on a brahma. However I'm not sure what to do for the tube screamer.

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The Tube Screamer is probably *THE* most copied OD pedal on Earth. Not only should there not be problems in picking one up, if you have issues getting a hold of one, the only reason should be because you're holding out for a cheaper price:

* So popular it even has its own Wikipedia entry
* Original Maxon 808 Overdrive at Musician's Friend
* Build and tweak your own Tube Screamer
* Ebay has a multitude of Tube Screamers and Clones

The Tube Screamer is probably *THE* most copied OD pedal on Earth. Not only should there not be problems in picking one up, if you have issues getting a hold of one, the only reason should be because you're holding out for a cheaper price:

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Thanks for the links and I agree with you. On the other hand, all tube screamers add their musical color. Does any one know which tube screamer George used back then?

On George's old site from five to six years ago he stated that they used Randall amps and experimented with a 100 watt Seymour Duncan amp. The SD amp was convertible to create different preamp tones. I think the SD amp was a prototype. Not sure it every made it to production. The Randall was a solid state amp. They also used 16 mics and 6 cabinets. The cabinets were Randall with Celestions I think.

Somewhere down the road during the tour he switched to Laney heads.

DaGuy said:

Thanks for the links and I agree with you. On the other hand, all tube screamers add their musical color. Does any one know which tube screamer George used back then?

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There's no reason to believe he used anything other than an original Ibanez TS-808.

Of course you can buy a reissue today or go on eBay looking for an original "from the day", but I pointed out the Maxon 808 to you, specifically because it *is* the original Ibanez TS-808 circuit, it's a decent price for a new TS, and offers the benefit of a true-bypass switch instead of the Ibanez TS-808 buffered switch.

Right now I am in the process of building the ITS8 kit I linked to you at General Guitar Gadgets. I will probably build more than one if only for the fun of chasing the Cusack Screamer.

Whether you get an original Ibanez TS-808 or build your own or buy a Maxon OD-9, you're going to be better off simply by making the plunge: buy one or make one. They are all actually so similar that time spent worrying about getting "George's Tube Screamer" is going to distract you from what sounds like your mission: getting George's sound.

Have you even heard a Tube Screamer? They're pretty anemic by themselves. Where they really shine is in the tone coloration and in pushing an amp. Ironically, I even use my Maxon OD-9 to push my Subdecay Blackstar Distortion pedal when I'm playing at practice levels.

Stop fretting about the lane and pick one. If you don't like that lane when you're in it, there's always another to get in.

*snip*

Zander said:

...that time spent worrying about getting "George's Tube Screamer" is going to distract you from what sounds like your mission: getting George's sound.

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One key element is missing here -- You'd better start with George's fingers. :roll:

:lol: :twisted:

I could play his amp, guitar, pedals, etc...but I'll still sound like me.

Thanks guys, and I'm completely on board with the comments -and I'm not just being polite. Let me add a bit so you know where I'm coming from:

1. Not really waiting for a good deal on a tube screamer. After dishing out significant cash for the Lynch combo and some modules a tube screamer seems quite affordable.

2. I don't come even close to playing like George and that's o.k. and furthermore don't think it's feasible long term. I'll just sound like, well, me...

But here's the deal. Chasing that tone has made my sound so much better. My ears are from the 80's: Priest, Maiden, Cult, Dokken etc. and so I searched high and low for a combo amp to meet the requirement. The Marshalls were either too expensive or seemed catering to the current tones. There were plenty of choices but none really did it for me. When I saw the Lynch Combo I immediately new that George could be trusted for that growling fire breathing (not noisy or fussy) 80's tone. I went to the store, tried one out and walked out with it on the same day. So, now I'm basically just wanting to learn and improve my own tone by leveraging what Lynch did. It paid off big time with the amp now I'm paying attention and learning about the fine details about tube screamers. Basically, I found the core of the tone, now I don't want anything not worthwhile in the signal chain.

So far I'm leaning for a puke green Ibanez TS9 unclear if the TS808 makes that much of a difference.

THANKS!

On the subject of Tube Screamers. Ive always used BOSS pedals and have no idea what model tube screamer is the best? there seems to be several models from over the years.

Balou said:

On the subject of Tube Screamers. Ive always used BOSS pedals and have no idea what model tube screamer is the best? there seems to be several models from over the years.

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FWIW, you may end up preferring the BOSS to the TS. My ears have been trained to the SD-1. I have used a TS (can't remember which one for sure, but newer model with 3 knobs), and I still preferred the BOSS Super OD. The TS is the "standard", but there are MANY good pedals out there.

The thing is, now all I have is a ME-70 multi pedal so its not as easy to just enhance threw the head so Ive been just putting it in front of the head and going threw KH-1 but would like to get the most out of the KH-3 module.

Balou said:

The thing is, now all I have is a ME-70 multi pedal so its not as easy to just enhance threw the head so Ive been just putting it in front of the head and going threw KH-1 but would like to get the most out of the KH-3 module.

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That's how an OD works best. Of course it sucks for any other effects.

You could try the Danelectro Cool Cat Transparent Overdrive for $39. Yes, it's a great bargain. It can be bright and glassy if you want it, or not, and you have a bass control. This one is true bypass.

I'd try this before the TS808 RI. The TS808 is going to be closer to the Cusack than the TS-9, and it's got a better buffer in it.

But what I'd do is take either your amp into the store, or fire up a Marshall JVM 205 (see if you can take it and a cab into a room where you can crank it) on OD Green and set everything at noon, grab a bunch of overdrives like these:

TS808, TS9, TS9X, and TS7
Maxon OD808
SD-1
Dano Cool Cat TOD
Fulltone Robin Trower Signature Overdrive
MXR Zakk OD

And see which one does the job for you at a price you can afford.

I find it quite ironic that in these bad economic times that companies like Maxon raise prices on their stuff from $130 to $160. But Fender and Gibson did the same thing.