Buying and Selling Modules - A question of responsibility

[Big Daddy]

I was going to post this on the classied forum, but re-read the FAQ and thought better of it. I hope it gets the traffic here that it would get on the classified forum, I think this is a necessary discussion that can benefit many of us here now and in the future

I want to know what the consensus here is on seller and buyer responsibility for modules being sold or traded.

First I would like to say that this is about a recent transaction to buy a used module from a respected forum member. I always check the good guy list and he?s on it. Also, I have no doubt that the item I was sold was in the condition that it was listed in when it left his possession. The problem is that the item I received was definitely not. The packaging was adequate. Insurance was purchased through the shipper and everything was delivered in a timely fashion. The problem remains that the item is not in proper working order and I?m wondering what the members of this forum would do if they found themselves in either of our shoes. I am trying to be totally fair here. Both of us think we?re right and that it?s the other?s responsibility. I have no doubt that the member I am dealing with is on the up and up, we just have a difference of opinion and I would think that it would benefit the entire forum to try and clear it up. Not that I think it will change my situation, but so that we come to a FAQ of sorts dealing with this issue so that future buyers and sellers know the score here on this forum.

Here?s my situation. Obviously, I purchased a used module from another forum member. When I received it, while the packaging didn?t indicate excessive rough handling, it was damaged nonetheless and it does not and will not work properly. I immediately contacted the seller. He offered two options? deal with USPS for the insurance he purchased or send it to the modder for repair, which he would pick up the postage for - he made no offer to pay for the repairs themselves. I responded that I would prefer he refund my money and deal with USPS himself. He very cordially responded that that option wasn?t on the table.

I would like to point out that he has offered pay for the additional postage to send it for repair and that he has said he would make up the difference, should there be any, between what I paid and what insurance covers. Has has gone out of his way to be cooperative in getting me the information I need to make a claim with USPS ? providing me with a copy of the receipt via email, quickly replying to my requests for certain information, etc... He is trying to be fair here. He?s just not offering what I feel to be fair. Since we are both gentlemen, it?s an agree to disagree kind of thing.

So I ask the forum members their opinions. What would you do in either of our situations? How would you deal with a module you sold that arrived damaged? What would you do if you bought a module that arrived damaged?

Again, I am NOT slinging mud here. This is not the first time in my life that someone didn?t see things exactly the way I do. I would just like to know what others would do in either situation

Thanks for your attention!

H

 

[crankyrayhanky]

Insurance is a bit of a waste of time IME
The only way to make it "valid claim" is to put it in as you receive the package. If the package is received and the truck drives away, good luck trying to get any cash. This basically just covers if the box is obviously mauled. Modules that get jostled around- even in a well packaged box- will often result in a bad pot/connection. This will not be clear when looking at the box, so you accept, then you're screwed.

I would always offer a complete refund, hope the buyer eats the return shipping. It's not up to the buyer to chase down insurance claims if the package arrived not working. That sucks, but it should suck for the seller

If the module is from JF and you live in the US, chances are the repair will not be costly.

I would like you to name names, as I do not wish to buy from someone who sticks you with a bad module. I'm reasonably sure it was a shipping fault, but the seller needs to step up here...otherwise there's no reason to consider dealing with them on any level

 

[JKD]

As Ray said, these things happen in shipping quite frequently....I've had it happen on both receiving and shipping end.

I think in one instance, buyer was able to repair it, second I simply did a full refund, including return shipping and repaired myself.

When I've received broken modules (both times a pot was damaged), I've simply repaired it myself...in one instance the seller refunded part of the purchase price, in the other I said not to bother.

I've never tried to claim on insurance as in all cases there was no sign of external packaging damage.

You really need to work out a solution where you are both happy.

 

[ricky]

I agree with Ray. If I had sold it to you, I would take it back and refund the money.

 

[Julia]

Given all the hassles with shipping is why I usually take the hit and trade crap in at Guitar Center. It's working when it gets there. They give me money. Usually not what I want, but it's done. Then I get something I want. If someone buys the stuff from them and it doesn't work then it's Guitar Center's problem, not mine.

Otherwise it's local sales only. I don't have the money to refund a purchase and be stuck with a loss and a door stop (like with an amp) that will cost several hundred to fix because the shipper dropped the f***ing thing a few times.

 

[rhequiem]

Yeah, that's a tough one... Personally, I think when I buy a module that I am assuming some responsibility for the risk of damage during shipping, as long as the module was packaged well. To me, that doesn't seem like it would be the seller's responsibility. To me, the seller is responsible for packaging the module well and shipping it fairly quickly after I pay for it. I think it's a courtesy for the seller to pay for shipping to the modder for repair, and possibly split the costs of repair with me. I don't know that I'd expect the seller to refund my money + pay for return shipping for something that wasn't their fault (unless of course the module was not packed well).

 

[speed2dirt]

It's not up to the buyer to chase down insurance claims if the package arrived not working. That sucks, but it should suck for the seller

Agreed. The seller should work out the insurance claim. The item you purchased was a working product and you did not receive that working product, but rather a defective unit. What happened to the unit is none of your concern. Maybe it was busted during shipping or maybe it was packaged already broke. It's speculation either way, and neither situation involves you. So the seller should work with USPS on the claim or pay for shipping and repairs. I personally don't feel a refund is a given since he sold you a product. He just needs to correct the issue by making sure the item you received is what you paid for (a working unit).

 

[alowerdeep]

Actually that is not true about insurance....When you purchase insurance through any carrier it is up to the receiver to file a claim with the carrier......I have had a few items damaged in the past from UPS and Fedex,been lucky with USPS.....I never filed a claim,but when inquiring I was told that the receiver files the claim....they would send someone out to look at teh packing material and item to see how it was packaged and if bad packaging contributed to the problem,then make the determination.....Doing anything by mail is a crapshoot in my opinion......Most of the time we are fortunate not to have issues.We just have to trust and rely on each other to package the stuff right.If you encounter a probelm I guess it comes down to how the two parties resolve it....In this case it looks like the shipper insured it,so he feels like he is absolved of teh responsibility and truthfully that is the purpose of insurance.I think it was generous of him to offer to pay the difference between what the insurance would pay and what was left or even to offer to ship it to the modder.....just stinks when something bad happens to something you are so looking forward to getting....

 

[crankyrayhanky]

Let's see a show of hands at how many people actually received money back on an insurance claim in shipping...I'm guessing 0 on module shipping

 

[HughJasol]

I've never had to file a claim from USPS . . . but I've heard the same thing as some have already stated here - unless the package is lost, good luck!

However, I've had good luck with UPS filing a claim even for damaged packages (well, only twice). I was informed by my local UPS Store that as the seller I should file the claim, which I did . . . I did have to inform the buyer that UPS may want to come to the shipping address of the recipient and inspect the damage themselves (which they almost never do unless it's a substantial amount of money), and thus he'd have to hold on to the item for a week in case they did.

I'm not sure where Fed-Ex ranks here, but I assume it would be similar to UPS . . .

 

[Mike P]

Let's see a show of hands at how many people actually received money back on an insurance claim in shipping...I'm guessing 0 on module shipping

I sold an EMU module in 2008 and shipped it via Fed Ex to a buyer in northern California. He emailed me upon receipt and said that the input and output jacks were broken. I was shocked because it was wrapped in several layers of bubble wrap and shipped in a sturdy box.

I filed a claim with Fed Ex and the unit was returned to me. Sure enough, it was broken, big time. Fed Ex reimbursed me for the damage inflicted and I had the unit repaired, then resold it on Ebay without issue.

I always purchase shipping insurance. It may be a PITA to file a claim and follow up but it's certainly worth it.

 

[drewiv]

I purchase insurance simply in case they lose the item. Otherwise, if I'm the shipper I offer to cover the cost of repair, shipping, etc. If the person doesn't want the hassle, I will take the item back. Broken pots and soldering happen during shipping from my experience, but I believe the seller should stand by the item. Nobody like getting broken gear.

 

[Jacksauce]

I've had a module arrive with a broken pot before. Rob repaired it for free when he turned it into my XMG. These things are delicate, all they need is a bump in the right spot. I always ship with insurance personally, gives both me and the buyer some peace of mind.

 

[drewiv]

I've had a module arrive with a broken pot before. Rob repaired it for free when he turned it into my XMG. These things are delicate, all they need is a bump in the right spot. I always ship with insurance personally, gives both me and the buyer some peace of mind.

I think that was from me? I believe I gave you a partial refund to pay for repair/shipping? If it was me, I sure hope I did considering my previous post...

 

[rhequiem]

lol

I've had a module arrive with a broken pot before. Rob repaired it for free when he turned it into my XMG. These things are delicate, all they need is a bump in the right spot. I always ship with insurance personally, gives both me and the buyer some peace of mind.

I think that was from me? I believe I gave you a partial refund to pay for repair/shipping? If it was me, I sure hope I did considering my previous post...

:lol:

 

[drewiv]

lol

I've had a module arrive with a broken pot before. Rob repaired it for free when he turned it into my XMG. These things are delicate, all they need is a bump in the right spot. I always ship with insurance personally, gives both me and the buyer some peace of mind.

I think that was from me? I believe I gave you a partial refund to pay for repair/shipping? If it was me, I sure hope I did considering my previous post...

:lol:

Yeah, what a d!ck would I be?!?!? I truly think it was me and, if I remember correctly, he told me not to worry about (really cool guy), but I refunded him a little to cover shipping... I think. I believe he might have been planning on modding it. I can't remember the story, or maybe I'm just making sh!t up. Who knows, I'm old and suffer from CRS Syndrome.

 

[The Rossness]

OP-

I've shipped hundreds of items over the years and have only had problems with a handful of them. I've never dealt with any claims for shipping carriers though. Typically if something arrives damaged and the buyer contacts me immediately after receiving the item, I will do 2 things-

1) I will accept a return minus the shipping cost. The buyer is responsible for shipping the item back to me in the same condition they got it. When it arrives and I've verified their problem, only then will I refund their money. However, if the buyer sends me the item and for some reason they threw it in a box without packing material, and it gets further damaged, I will subtract the "new damage" from how much of a refund I give them. I feel we all need to be responsible.

2) If the buyer asks me to pay for a repair, or a new part (I shipped an amp once the the EL34's broke). I will either send them money for a new part, or if its a repair, I'll ask the person who is repairing the item to send me the invoice. Again, I feel that if the item needs to be shipped to a repair facility, it's the buyers responsibility to ship it, or hand deliver it. I do not cover or reimburse anyone for shipping charges, as there wasn't a problem with shipping, but with the item itself.

If the buyer receives an item of mine and doesn't contact me for a week or two and then tries to say the item is broken, I will not accept a return.

 

[scary groove]

As a seller I believe it is my responsibility to get what I say is a working module to a buyer in working condition. I know that UPS and USPS throw those little boxes around. So I pack those modules in bigger boxes and stuff that thing with tons of bubble wrap.

The way I see it is if I buy a module in good working condition and it arrives not working, whatever caused that is not my responsibility. It's on the seller for packaging or on the shipping company for mishandling the package.

 

[BigBrewtus]

I think anyone is fortunate to recieve anything shipped in working condition after watching videos of our items being handled. :lol: I have been hosed like this before. UPS has very specific rules in using insurance. I never knew of them until it was too late. I was stuck paying more in shipping then the item was worth and out the refund for the item too. Everyone should try to get on the same playing field when dealing with these issues and just have some simpathy. It is a really hard thing to do with so many scammers out there. I know as much as anyone the GOOD GUY list and Respected Veterans of a forum can still be flawed in what you really get. I have had dealings with supposed High Reguarded peeps here as well that were dishonest to make a deal.
Anyhow these modules are a bit fragile and we are all lucky to get any amp, big or small, to our door without a hitch. Ive blabbed enough. :wink:
As Bill and Ted would say:
BE EXCELLENT TO EACH OTHER.

 

[rvf263]

I would always offer a complete refund, hope the buyer eats the return shipping. It's not up to the buyer to chase down insurance claims if the package arrived not working. That sucks, but it should suck for the seller

I would like you to name names, as I do not wish to buy from someone who sticks you with a bad module. I'm reasonably sure it was a shipping fault, but the seller needs to step up here...otherwise there's no reason to consider dealing with them on any level

I totally agree.