Module that can cut thru stock 5150

[sepherus]

I recently started jamming with another guitarist and he is used to being in one guitar projects. His tone use just massive. He uses an EC1000 with duncans straight in to his stock 5150, NS2, and JCM 800 cab loaded with t75s.
I'm using an RM50 with 6l6gc biased on the hot side. Usually an UltraXL a my dirty channel. However I don't believe it is stock. It is about as tight and tonally very similar to the Engl E530 I had before running into a rectoverb power section. I'm also stuck running an Avatar 212 for now with a v30 and a Warehouse ET65 (Celestion G12-65 clone). It is a surprisingly full cab despite it being a 212, but it still isn't a 412 by any means. I don't have the space our money to upgrade to a 412 and probably won't for a while.
It doesn't matter which of my many guitars I play, if I boost with a ts, or really almost anything. I have not tried my tweed model boosted with the ts yet, but I probably will next time. The only thing I've done that has worked is run both my channel and master vol at about 6, and had him run about 4 with my ts boosting and some slight eq changes. I could mostly hear myself then, but he didn't like the response of the amp then.
I was wondering if I swapped the 6l6s for EL34s and went with a more Marshally flavored module if that would compliment and cut well enough in stuff ranging from classic doom, some thrashier stuff and some days Suffocation style death metal. Or should I look for something else? At this point the tone is highly negotiable as long as I can cut thru better and it compliments well enough.

 

[Daryl]

Sounds like an EQ issue more than an issue with the voicing of a module.
You should be able to get the cut you need with an UltraXL. Try upping the mids next time. When playing by yourself, if you are playing some heavier **** and like a heavy scooped mid sound, it's easy to dial in a sound that doesn't cut once the drums, bass, and extra guitar start creating sound pressure levels in the room. My advice is to get a tone dialed in that you like and when you jam with the 5150 guy, listen and boost your mids until you get the cut you need. If necessary, adjust the presence knob up to taste. It's predominantly the mids that will give you that "cut" every time. Guitar is a midrange instrument after all...
:twisted: :shock: :twisted:

 

[JKD]

I've never played with a band or anyone else so take this advice for what it's worth...

I'd honestly try a different module... I think the 5150 and UltraXL are going to be very close in voicing...try something more Marshally that compliments his tone?

EL34s should help some though.

I would imagine his 4x12 is going to just disperse sound better than your 2x12...have you tried standing out front and seeing if you can hear yourself?

 

[Shinozoku]

Turn your gain down a tad and up your mids.

Also try biasing your 6L6's cooler, to around 30mv.

Then step out, and take a listen.

I EQ my Ultra XL as such and it's brutal and cutting:

Gain: 1:00
Bass: 11:00
Mids: 1:00
Treble: 12:30-1:30
Level: as high as I need it.

 

[sepherus]

This was with my mids dimed and presence at about 4 oclock gain at about 11 o'clock. I also tried more balanced settings and they were worse. I tend to enjoy a large amount of midrange on my sound. Contrary to what many people think about metal most bands use a fairly healthy amount in the guitar sound.

I could hear myself directly in front of the speakers but then I feed back like a mother. I understand how to make a good band mix. 5150s and Mesas are both really sonically large amps that are hard to compete with. Maybe next time I'll ask him to switch cabs, and see if that helps.
As for lowering the bias, why would that help? I was under the impression that not only lowers wattage, thus volume, butt also pulls out more midrange. Please correct me if I'm wrong

 

[Shinozoku]

Raising the bias technically decreases wattage, because the wattage is the power level at which the power tubes can overdrive. The hotter the tubes, the more power tube drive. I found that my sound is clearer and more cutting with a slightly cooler bias, though both are great for different things. I'm just currently in a cold bias mood.

5150's are naturally biased fairly cold, as are Mesas.

 

[sepherus]

I know if you bias too cold you get a lot of crossover distortion also. Most quads of 6l6s will produce a lot of crossover distortion in a 5150, hence why the rhythm channel doesn't produce a common clean sound. Same with the 5152 with it's limited adjustable bias. It doesn't quite get far enough out of the low bias settings to completely stop crossover distortion. The 5153 is a totally different amp however. But yeah, topic for another thread. I must say this dilemma is making me want to just get my RM4 fixed and trade the RM50 for something I know will be able to handle it, like my old VHT Deliverance 60. Used to cut thru a 5152 into a mesa 412 with the same 212 I have now easy.

 

[Daryl]

Turn your gain down a tad and up your mids.

Also try biasing your 6L6's cooler, to around 30mv.

Then step out, and take a listen.

I EQ my Ultra XL as such and it's brutal and cutting:

Gain: 1:00
Bass: 11:00
Mids: 1:00
Treble: 12:30-1:30
Level: as high as I need it.

Totally dig it...
That's the best way to get cut in a dense mix. Thanks Shinozoku, I forgot to mention in my last post that turning the gain down can help. It keeps the mids from getting too distorted and becoming sort of a "white noise" kind of thing. The setting above looks like a good one except for one thing. You get more out of the MTS system when you max the level on the module itself and use the master to bring up the volume. The density and presence controls will fine tune things nicely. You get more harmonics and tone that way. This topic was covered a while back, but I can't find the link to the thread right now.
Check out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPeQvLp7c5o&feature=channel
This is a video of the Kirk Hammett series amp. Paul of Guitar World makes a statement that has been made on this forum before concerning how to get the most out of MTS. @4:30 of the video he gives a quick tip that is gold when trying to dial in great tones with the RM series heads.
Also the KH series of modules sound killer. Even if you aren't a Metallica fan. If you can't afford a 4x12 right now I would say that maybe angling the cab up towards you or putting it on a chair or stand of some kind could help. Otherwise you got a 2x12 "ankle blaster"
It's all in the mids.... :shock: It's all in the mids....
Peace. :twisted: :shock: :twisted:

 

[Mattfig]

OK here's my hybrid answer....Switching to EL34s and more of a Marshall tone would help...Partially because you'll have more mids on a Marshall tone (kinda like the EQ solution) and because it's a contrasting tone toward the 5150...The Ultra XL is close to 5150 so it's probably a volume war...The El34s will break up quickly at loud volumes and the boosted mids on a Marshall module will help you cut through the mix and differentiate your tone from the other guitarist....

Good luck!!!!

 

[alboz28]

My .02.....and more...If you are playing Death, Doom and Thrash type metal and rehearsing/jamming at volume knob levels at 6 ...there is nothing much you can do without adding more power...It's not your module, it is in the power amp section..

as far as speakers etc...You are running a V30 and a ET65 which will give a full rounded sound, but your other guitarist is running GT75's which are much harsher in tone and have mostly an "in your face" mid/low end punch

I believe the 5150 head is 120 watts and you are competing with 50 watts.. and that's not counting the variables of which amp has more efficient running specs...

bottom line - you don't have enough horsepower - The RM4 with a VHT power amp would your solution given your current situation

 

[riff19]

Move your cabs around to different spots in the room

 

[sepherus]

I'm going to try an SL+ or a boosted Plexi. I may not use EL34s/E34Ls, and try a KT style tube. They always sound big and full. KT77s still have that nice upper mid presence of ELs, and KT88s just have a nice broad midrange. Even if it doesn't work as I hope, I've been looking for and excuse to buy a Marshall flavor module. If that doesn't work I'll just suck it up and get a 412. Each speaker added puts out about +6dB and reinforcement tonally. I don't want to do a track mounted power section because they weigh far too much, unless they are EL84 based. I.d be willing to get a different head, fix my RM4, and get a simple switching system and have the extra channels too. Only if absolutely necessary though.

As I mentioned before I have my tubes biased fairly hot. The 5150 stock actually only measures ~78 watts due to the cold bias. I know the term tones rule also (ten times power is only twice as loud.) Power isn't the issue so much as speakers and tone.

 

[nomad100]

depending on the efficiency of the speakers, his cab is giving him 6db boost plus 50more watts which is a 3db boost. So a total 9db boost, that like your 50W vs 800W if i did the math right.

I think 120W would have to be peak for a quad of 6l6's. Make sure your density up to high, producing all that bass will eat up some power. Also if stand further away from your amp but you know still in front of it you'll hear it better. I can't hear my amp when it's blasted at my knees.

What kind of pickups/guitar do you use, are they super warm, aka muddy or do they cut?

like my SG is muddy compared to my les paul same pickups. Maple neck on the les paul ads some mids.

 

[sepherus]

My primary guitar is a Sherman custom 27" 7 string with a maple/purpleheart laminate set neck, ebony board, koruna body, and BKP nail bombs. It has a very large full sound with plenty of attack.
Other guitars I use frequently when playing with this group are an Epi LPC with pre label Duncan 59s, a maple walnut nt mahogany body LTD AX with an Evo, and a Jackson Dinky Reverse with a duncan live wire metal set. Same problem all around. Less so with the LP, but that was in a different room and the other guitarist, was using a create cab then.

 

[pipedwho]

depending on the efficiency of the speakers, his cab is giving him 6db boost ...

Adding extra speakers doesn't make the resulting sound louder. It simply gives the speaker cabinet more headroom to handle a louder amp. So there is no 6dB boost from going from a single to quad speaker arrangement.

Speaker efficiency can make a difference, for example going from a Greenback to a Vintage 30 would give you an extra 2dB of perceived volume.

Also, cabinet volume and design can help bolster the lower frequencies so they don't get muddy and have better projection. This is why a large properly ported 1x12 can sound as huge as a quad box.

 

[yourguitarhero]

Tell the other guy to turn down.
EQ your amps differently.
Use the opposite pickups to the other guy (neck/bridge).

You need to set your sounds together and get a 3rd person observer.

 

[RRR]

Tell the other guy to turn down.
EQ your amps differently.
Use the opposite pickups to the other guy (neck/bridge).

You need to set your sounds together and get a 3rd person observer.

+1 Experiment