Preamp Tubes??

[JKMV12]

I'm thinking about replacing the preamp tubes in some of my modules, as well as my RM80.

My Blackface definitely needs new tubes; it is making a whistling noise. What tubes should i use? It currently has a ARS 12AX7 and 12AU7.

My Clean modules has too much gain; a R1 switch should fix that right? But what tubes should i put in it to get the least gain and best tone? I think it has EHX right now.

My 1087 sounds pretty good, but could use some improvement. I was thinking some Tung-sol 12AX7's. I want more clarity, definition, and less noise. It has EHX currently.

What about the P1 and V1 in the chassis? I have one vote for a JAN Phillips 5751 in the PI position and a Tung Sol 12AX7 in the V1.

Here are some other tubes i have been looking at; are they any good? Which ones should i consider?

http://www.tubedepot.com/ts-12ax7g.html

http://www.tubedepot.com/ts-12ax7.html

difference b/t gold pin and new production??

http://www.tubedepot.com/nos-5814a-jan.html

http://www.tubedepot.com/nos-5963-jan.html

http://www.tubedepot.com/nos-5814a-jan-ray.html

http://www.tubedepot.com/nos-12at7wc.html

Any other recommendations would be great.

Genre: Melodic Death Metal, Thrash Metal, Heavy Metal, Death Metal, etc. etc.

I have a ISP decimator that is hooked up to the front. I am getting a lot of noise from the tubes in the back; it isn't that bad, but what tubes should i put in the P1 and V1 to reduce the noise? I'm thinking the JAN Phillips and Tung-Sols would be the best, but i'm not sure. This is my first tube amp, so i don't know much.

Thanks, John.

 

[JKD]

USe a 5751 for v1 to clean up tones...their are some great sounding NOS tubes out there which are pretty inexpensive but great tone..JAN/GE or Jan/Phillips.



Steve

 

[Julia]

Gold pins are snake oil. Just like gold plated plugs.

I'm changing some preamp tubes. I'm not a JJ fan. I've got a little issue where it seems the V1 is heating up too much if I'm boosting or doing some transistor clipping. If I play with my single coils FIRST and do that it's fine. If I play my humbuckers with even a treble booster first then go to the singles the singles sound muddy. Does this mean the JJ in V1 is heating up too much then getting real squishy? That's what it sounds like.

So I ordered a Ruby 12AX7AC5 HG+ which is a Shuguang for V1 and a Penta 12AX7M, and Penta 7025C to try in a couple other places. Maybe the last two will end up in the Grail. It just seems like I need more headroom.

 

[JKMV12]

Gold pins are snake oil. Just like gold plated plugs.

What is the advantage?

 

[Shinozoku]

Gold pins are snake oil. Just like gold plated plugs.

What is the advantage?

She's saying there's really no advantage. Snake Oil was a "cure" all thing in the old days that was basically just regular cooking oil I believe, and was sold as said "cure-all" to make money off of people gullible enough to buy it.

 

[JKMV12]

So what should i put in the 1087, Clean, and Blackface?? I am pretty much set on the JAN Phillips 5751 in the P1 and Tung-Sol 12AX7 in the V1, but i'm not sure about the modules. The Blackface definitely needs new ones. I am having trouble getting a good tone with the 1087 and am hoping that a tube switch will fix it, but i'm not 100% on what to get. suggestions??

nothing more than $30 per tube.

Thanks, John.

 

[Julia]

You know when someone says "good tone" out of the 1087 it brings to mind how do you define good tone? And a preamp tube won't change the character of the module or the amp. It'll just give you more or less of something that's already there.

* you want higher gain? Chinese Gen 8 or Gen 9 ECC83 HG -- although the Shuguangs can be a bit harsh with treble, they're not bad if you combine them with something else, but they really boost mids and stuff for the more Marshally bark.
* more clarity? Tung Sol 12AX7
* brighter? maybe a Mullard RI
* more compression and sponginess? JJ
* also more gain? Penta 7025C
* Sovteks don't do anything particularly well, nor do they do anything really poorly either.

If these don't do it try an ANOS Mullard or Telefunken. The Telefunken will be around $30 for ANOS and the ANOS Mullards will run about $70. Worth it? Who knows? But if the Tung Sol doesn't give the clarity, I don't think the Telefunken will because they're very similar in sound.

You also need to consider your pickups. Actives tend to overdrive the V1 straight away. Singles give you more headroom. So if you're using actives and complaining about mud, you need more headroom in V1.

Also are you evaluating the tone solo or in a mix? I've found the two aren't necessarily compatible. I've recorded using tones I thought sounded horrid solo, but in a band mix sounded real good.

And I wouldn't base anything off an Ei because those tubes don't last and you can't get them anymore.

And at some point I had to look at my rig and say "this is as good as it's gonna get. This is my sound." And make the most of it. I've got what you could call a primitive rig: wah type, EQ, and a couple fuzzes, and a tubescreamer. Pedals aren't a bad thing either.

The Randall is not a simple unit in some ways but is much simpler than some other modern amps. If I really feel like playing high gain, I'll hook up my 5150.

 

[JKMV12]

Thanks! It sounds like the Tung-Sols are what i am looking for as far as the 1087 goes. I definitely want more clarity; it seems when i increase the mids, it loses definition and becomes kind of fuzzy. I want it to be tighter and fuller. And also less noise.

I am not in a band per se; i mostly play alone, but sometimes go to my friend's house, who is a drummer. Haven't been over there with the RM80 yet, but i will soon. I'm hoping that i can get a better sound in that setting, b/c i can crank it up a little bit more.

so what would be the best low gain tubes to put in the blackface and Clean to compensate for the EMG's? 12AU7? 12AT7? what brand? i can't say much on what kind of tone i want from the blackface b/c when i first tried it, it started making that "whistling" sound.

For the Clean, i mainly want less gain. I will likely make the R1 switch at some point, or get it mod'd, but for now i want to try preamp tubes. As far as tone.....maybe warmer. Whatever will get me the best clean sound out of both the Blackface and Clean.

I'm thinking of getting other modules or get my current ones mod'd, but i want to see what i can get out of my current setup b4 i start selling modules and getting new ones or getting them mod'd. My ULead is definitely getting mod'd to the Mesa Mark, but i want to see what i can get out of the rest of them.

so should i get a Tung-Sol's for both the V1 and V2 in the 1087, or should i mix it up? What would be a good tube to pair with the tung-sol?

Thanks, John.

 

[Julia]

In my Brahma, it didn't have enough gain, but my experience with the Marshall JVM told me I didn't really care for ALL Shuguang HG in the preamp (Marshall white labels). when I got my warranty exchange on the JVM I took all the good tubes out and put microphonic crap in the amp. So I have some of the white Marshalls.

In the Brahma I put the tung Sol in the V1 and the Shuguang in V2. It really made a lot of difference. It now sounds like a Plexi.

So Tung Sol and Chinese Gen 8 or 9 HG.

In the Blackface I'd put a NOS JAN 5751 in V1 and a Tung Sol in V2. If you don't want any break up at all, run your Gain level at about 10.

Don't be afraid to roll off the volume knob on the guitar to clean it up. Seriously, you should do this. Sometimes with really hot actives like the EMG 81 you'll need to roll the volume knob back to about 7. I don't know what you've got for a neck pickup, but if it's a EMG 60 you might want to try that as well. It's not as hot as the 81.

Other options are to ditch the actives. Or try the 18v mod on them. I've heard the 18v mod makes them sound less flat. I'm not a fan of EMGs.

I like to play using both pickups -- Neck on 10, Bridge on 7 or 8, and the tone backed off almost all the way. I can use my EQ as a clean boost. Then I'm not playing metal either.

 

[Shinozoku]

Don't you mean to use the Gain as a volume control with the Level maxed out? Even with both knobs at noon though I still don't get much breakup with my D Activator X, if any. It's not until I start cranking the master, have the level all the way up, and have to use the gain for a volume that I get overdrive. Although I noticed the module gets insanely bright with the level cranked, so I turn that down and raise the gain to add some more warmth without the boominess I sometimes get from using too much bass. and mids.

 

[JKMV12]

Are the Shuguang 12AX7's the same as the Sino/Chinese 12AX7A's?? I found the Shuguang's on Doug's Tubes for $10.50, the Sino 12AX7A on The Tube Depot for $8.95 and the Chinese 12AX7A on The Tube Store for $9.95. Are they all the same tube, or are they different??

Since the Tung-Sol is pretty much a high gain tube (right?), would it be a good idea to put it in the V2 of the Clean and Blackface? I read that the V1 is for Tone and the V2 is for Drive.

What exactly is the 1086 based off of? I figured it was a cross b/t Mesa and Marshall. What would be another good tube to put in the 1087 with the Tung-Sol, that would complement the Mesa side, if that is what it is based off of? Or would the Tung-Sol/Shuguang be the best combination?

I am using a EMG 60 with the 18V mod for cleans. I'm pretty sure the R1 switch in the Clean will fix the gain issue. Not sure how it sounds through the Blackface, but once i get the new tubes, i can find out. I'm sure the gain will be fine since it is the "blackface" version.

Thanks, John.

 

[Julia]

12AX7s have to be within a certain spec for output. Some fall out of the spec a little bit and have up to 10% "extra". Over that they'd be called something different.

I had an ANOS Telefunken 12AX7. It was a nice tube. The guy over at KCA NOS tubes told me the closest I could get to it was the Tung Sol. It's a good clear sounding tube.

The "Sino", Chinese, whatever are made at the Shuguang factory. They're the same tubes. They tend to be the high performance end meaning tend to have that little "extra" on them.

All I know is that on the Brahma I put a Tung Sol in V1 and a white label Marshall (which is the Shuguang as per Santiago Alvarez of Marshall UK) in the V2 position and the module actually started resembling what i bought it for -- sounding like a Plexi. I think this combination would work well in the 1087.

I'd prefer this combo over the Sovteks (which is what Mesa typically uses).

And trust me, a graphic EQ can work wonders at tone shaping. Just get a good one and try running it before the amp.

For the Blackface I'd run a NOS JAN 5751 in V1 and a Tung Sol 12AX7 in V2.

Clean? I'd go 5751 and a 12AT7 and that should give you no breakup at all unless you start pushing the power section really hard.

then for most clean work, if I'm using humbuckers I'll also roll off the volume knob on the guitar, or use single coils. but like I said I'm not playing metal, and I don't have my module gain set really high, and if I need the extra distortion I'll hit it with a fuzz or overdrive.

 

[JKMV12]

What 12AT7 should i go with for the Clean? the JAN Phillips?

http://www.tubedepot.com/nos-12at7wc.html

RFT?

http://thetubestore.com/rftecc81.html

Shuguang?

http://thetubestore.com/sino12at7.html

JJ?

http://thetubestore.com/teslaecc81.html

Thanks, John.

 

[Julia]

If you can get NOS that cheap go for it. They'll be better than new production. As a rule. YMMV.

On the 12AT7 two words .... NOS Mullard.

He's got the real deal there for under $30, and it should last you about 10 years.

And this reminds me.... I've got a couple ANOS Mullard 12AX7s I might try in V1 of the amp.

 

[JKMV12]

I am probably going to get the tubes from the tube depot. Should i get the tubes with any tests?? Here is what i was thinking

One JAN Phillips with Balanced Triodes and Low Noise and Microphonics (+$6.00)

One JAN Phillips and One Tung-Sol with Low Noise and Microphonics and matched (+$10.00)

One JAN Phillips and One Mullard with Low Noise and Microphonics and matched (+$10.00)

One Tung-Sol with Low Noise and Microphnoics (+$4.00)

One Tung-Sol and One Shuguang with Low Noise and Microphonics, Hi Gain, and matched (+$14.00)

Is this a good idea, or should i just get them all with the standard test? I was thinking at least getting them matched and the one JAN with balanced triodes b/c it is going in the phase inverter. Is it worth it to get low noise and microphonics and hi gain??

Thanks, John.

 

[Julia]

Low noise and microphonics... okay so here's where they get you. Yeah, I'm all for low noise and low microphonics. They'd better be that way.

Balanced? the need for balanced phase inverters seems to have arrived about the time of the internet. I get balanced if they don't charge me extra. otherwise it's a waste of money. why because the phase inverter circuit is unbalanced. Putting a +/- 1% tube in a +/- 20% circuit? Which is going to prevail? I just stuck a low noise tube in there -- the JAN GE 5751.

Matched? Preamp tubes? never heard of them before. I would think the same principle would apply, especially since you can't adjust it. matched is like "gold pins".

Sometimes some better tones can come from unbalanced and unmatched systems. What's the point of getting matched if you start moving them around. And that day will come. You'll say... I wonder what this will sound like in this other position -- boom, no longer matched.

Basically unless it is real important to you that all the preamp tubes in the amp are matched you're wasting your money. Just get the low noise and low microphonics, and maybe the HG option on a couple.

I get matched in power tubes only because it means they got a little extra testing done. It's not really even necessary there as long as the bias is set properly. But matched preamp tubes?????

 

[Shinozoku]

Low noise and microphonics... okay so here's where they get you. Yeah, I'm all for low noise and low microphonics. They'd better be that way.

Balanced? the need for balanced phase inverters seems to have arrived about the time of the internet. I get balanced if they don't charge me extra. otherwise it's a waste of money. why because the phase inverter circuit is unbalanced. Putting a +/- 1% tube in a +/- 20% circuit? Which is going to prevail? I just stuck a low noise tube in there -- the JAN GE 5751.

Matched? Preamp tubes? never heard of them before. I would think the same principle would apply, especially since you can't adjust it. matched is like "gold pins".

Sometimes some better tones can come from unbalanced and unmatched systems. What's the point of getting matched if you start moving them around. And that day will come. You'll say... I wonder what this will sound like in this other position -- boom, no longer matched.

Basically unless it is real important to you that all the preamp tubes in the amp are matched you're wasting your money. Just get the low noise and low microphonics, and maybe the HG option on a couple.

I get matched in power tubes only because it means they got a little extra testing done. It's not really even necessary there as long as the bias is set properly. But matched preamp tubes?????

Julia is correct once again

 

[JKMV12]

is this a good place to buy tubes?

http://www.cryoset.com/catalog/index.php?osCsid=5a7643180079e0a0d0cba549f532b9a4

they "cryo treat" their tubes at no extra cost. They are a little bit more expensive than a place like the tube depot, but i'm considering it anyway. would the "cryo treatment be worth it? here are the tubes i have been looking at:

http://www.cryoset.com/catalog/prod...0cba549f532b9a4

http://www.cryoset.com/catalog/prod...0cba549f532b9a4

http://www.cryoset.com/catalog/prod...0cba549f532b9a4

thanks, John.

 

[KillTone]

I can't speak from personal experience with cryo treating tubes, but I have bought some NOS tubes from a local high end stereo shop and the owner swears by the cryo treated tubes.

He said they sound better, are less microphonic and last longer. He sends all of his personal NOS tubes in for the cryo treatment.

 

[Julia]

[smart-assed remark] Hey I've got an idea. You seem bent on spending extra money. Just grab the tubes you want, and send the extra to me. [/smart-assed remark]

The Gear Page (aka rich people who can afford real $75K Dumbles) on Cryo tubes

Bottom line: waste of money. You can buy NOS tubes for those prices.

MAYBE you can tell in high end tube audio gear, but in a guitar amp that you're going to be running with distortion? I don't think so. And as is stated, the cryo treatment may weaken the structure inside the tube.

You don't know if the tubes will actually last longer because the tube may have lasted the same length of time without the cryo treatment. Maybe even longer. Maybe that was just a good batch of tubes.

NOS preamp tubes (the real deal from places like http://www.kcanostubes.com ) should last about 10 yrs for preamp tubes and about 2 to 3 yrs for power tubes, but I wouldn't spend my money on the power tubes because you could end up with a bad set anyway. It's a crap shoot with electronics.