To feel or not to feel

[j4q0]

Dear fellow members,

I'm in need of some guidance in the MTS realm as I can't figure out what the problem would be.

I like quite a lot the color and tone I get from the modules I have yet this "feel" thing is not quite right and it has been addressed and discussed on several occasions yet never from the point of view of an RM4 + power amp if I'm not mistaken.

The simplest way to put this is to say that imagine you're trying to play artificial harmonics and the rig just wont give them to you. This translates in my ears almost as if I'm playing through a broken overdrive/distortion box in front of an amp.
I'm new to the MTS world but I'm not a new player so the solution to this is just escaping my hands and I'm in need of some direction and/or help.
I've tried swapping tubes in the modules, in the RM4, swapping cables connecting the RM4 to the power amp, using several guitars, pickups.

But what is most disconcerting is that this "feel issue" just doesn't happen when using the same rig with the exception of a different preamp, an MP1 or a Mesa Quad as an example. Playing the other preamps will just feel and sound fuller and "right" compared to the RM4.
Forgot to mention that I'm using the preamps into the power section of a 5153 50w.

I will appreciate very much any comment, suggestion, insight that anyone can share about this matter.

Thanks in advance for the responses.

J.

 

[kc2eeb]

Playing through the same speakers?

 

[MarcoR]

But what is most disconcerting is that this "feel issue" just doesn't happen when using the same rig with the exception of a different preamp, an MP1 or a Mesa Quad as an example. Playing the other preamps will just feel and sound fuller and "right" compared to the RM4.
Forgot to mention that I'm using the preamps into the power section of a 5153 50w.

I will appreciate very much any comment, suggestion, insight that anyone can share about this matter.

Where do you have the master volume on the RM4 set? And where is the master volume on the modules set? Any effects in the loop or after the preamp?

 

[Oregon]

Try to keep your module volume above 1 or 2 if you don't already.

 

[Jaymzrock]

^^^ 1 or 2 o'clock, to be exact.

 

[j4q0]

Thanks for the replies.

kc2eeb: Yes, same speakers and same rig, the only thing that changes is the RM4 for another preamp.

MarcoR, Oregon, Jaymzrock: The signal chain is as follows:
Guitar > RM4 > Rocktron Replifex (set to prehush) > 5153 50w fx return > 2x12 cab w/Eminence gov.
The volume on each module is beyond 1 o'clock (on 3 for one of the modules) and the master of the RM4 is about 7 o'clock. The signal fed back to the 5153 comes from the Replifex output.

Having said this, I use the same exact set up with the other two preamps and it does not feel/play like what the RM4 is giving me. I've also tried the RM4 directly into the 5153 fx return and a Mesa fifty/fifty and the result in feel is the same. :?
The only thing i haven't tried is to have the RM4 master volume at noon or above... perhaps that will make a difference?

I failed to mention that the Camerock I have gives me more of that true amp feel, which again the Quad or the MP1 have no problem in giving.

I'm just at a loss about what to do here.

 

[Jaymzrock]

I usually run my module volumes at about 2 o'clock, and the amp's Master Volume between 10 o'clock and noon. I use an RM100 though, so I'm not sure where the variables between our amps are, especially since your slaving into another amp's FX loop. Maybe it's an instrument/line level thing going on somewhere in the chain? Again, I'm not sure.

 

[suphuckers]

I'm just getting into these amps (I'll stop saying that after this post), and I have come across many of the issues that I see other people complaining about. Squealing/Loss of feel etc etc. I think they are all fixable/avoidable. Some of them are complex but... Did I read you correctly the Camerock doesn't have the same issue? If so... your problem is a no brainer.

 

[MarcoR]

MarcoR, Oregon, Jaymzrock: The signal chain is as follows:
Guitar > RM4 > Rocktron Replifex (set to prehush) > 5153 50w fx return > 2x12 cab w/Eminence gov.
The volume on each module is beyond 1 o'clock (on 3 for one of the modules) and the master of the RM4 is about 7 o'clock. The signal fed back to the 5153 comes from the Replifex output.

7 o'clock is pretty low on the RM4 master volume. When I ran the RM4 onto a MOD50 serial return, The master volume had to be 100% to match the volume of the same module (set identically) in the MOD50.

If the Camerock seems better than the other modules, it could be a tube issue but you said you already tried swapping tubes. For giggles, try swapping the tubes out of the Camerock with one of your other modules and see if anything changes. Take a look and the V1 tube in the RM4 and try swapping that out again.

While you're troubleshooting, take the Replifex out of the signal path.
Your dealing with a few gain/volume stages; between the module volume, RM4 volume, input volume and output volume on the Replifex there is a lot of opportunity to mess up the feel and tone.

I realize the same set up works fine with the other preamps you mentioned but some gear is more susceptible to impedance and capacitance variations than others.

 

[j4q0]

After reading your comments and suggestions I realized that I need to try bringing up the master output of the RM4, haven't had time to try that yet but it will be the first thing to do aside from swapping tubes from the Camerock to other modules to see if anything changes.

suphuckers: I didn't say the Camerock didn't have the same issue, the thing here is that it is a LOT less noticeable.
Please explain your no brainer, as I've swapped tubes on the other modules and it didn't make a difference, unless you mean that the other modules are just not for me?

Again, simplest way to put it is talking about artificial (pinch?) harmonics, think Zakk Wylde, it's easier to get them in the Camerock, and they come out very easily in the 5153 or other preamps, or any other high gain amp I've played before.
Just for the sake of clarifying, I never run the gain too high that it gets in the way of articulation, so it's not that I'm not getting enough gain/saturation from the modules, the gain just feels awkward in the sense that I explained.

MarcoR: Could you please let me know which is the V1 in the RM4?
I'll trouble shoot without the Replifex as you suggested, I also thought that could be an issue but didn't make a difference when I plugged the RM4 into the 5153 fx return directly, although I did kept the master output of the RM4 very low as the modules themselves were pretty high.

Thanks for the replies again.

 

[MarcoR]

Again, simplest way to put it is talking about artificial (pinch?) harmonics, think Zakk Wylde, it's easier to get them in the Camerock, and they come out very easily in the 5153 or other preamps, or any other high gain amp I've played before.
Just for the sake of clarifying, I never run the gain too high that it gets in the way of articulation, so it's not that I'm not getting enough gain/saturation from the modules, the gain just feels awkward in the sense that I explained.

MarcoR: Could you please let me know which is the V1 in the RM4?
I'll trouble shoot without the Replifex as you suggested, I also thought that could be an issue but didn't make a difference when I plugged the RM4 into the 5153 fx return directly, although I did kept the master output of the RM4 very low as the modules themselves were pretty high.

Thanks for the replies again.

It's the tube closest to the input jack. What modules specifically have the issue the worst? Your observation regarding pinch harmonics is something I have found as well at times compared to other amps. I seem to only notice it on lower notes though and have attributed it to eq or just the voicing of the module. I have no trouble making my middle strings squeal. :lol:

 

[kc2eeb]

One of the reasons I mentioned speakers.

 

[j4q0]

MarcoR: Closest to the rear input I will assume Do you happen to know what is the function of the other 2 tubes of the RM4?
True, higher notes will squeal easier, though they still feel "off" somehow.

kc2eeb: I'm not following this, could you please elaborate on that?
I've never had an experience like this before while trying out different cabs and speakers. I will say that my experience with gear has been somewhat limited though I've had the opportunity to really try out different Marshall, Peavey, Mesa and Carvin amps/cabs.

 

[kc2eeb]

Speakers have a lot to do with the sustain (bloom) of pinch harmonics. When you mention the different amps are they all plugged into the same speaker(s) or into their respective speakers(cabinets)? Also, as was previously mentioned, the respective volume levels (gain,master,power amp master) greatly affect the overall feel of the amp. In most amps, the gain levels are more or less locked in by design. With the MTS system you can saturate the gain stages to the point where the frequency response rolls off, which is normal, and you lose highs i.e. harmonics. Other systems "don't trust you" to be aware of that, and preset limits. I would (and I do) when finding out why or why not a harmonic doesn't jump out, is really spin those dials, even if it means turning the power amp master all the way up. I don't set arbitrary limits as to where my gains, and masters are.

 

[j4q0]

I see, your explanation makes perfect sense. I was aware of all the gain stages in the MTS setup, I'll need to experiment a little further.
Yes all the rig is hooked up to the same speakers/cab, the only thing that I've changed is the RM4 for another preamp, or just the 5153 alone (with the same speakers/cab).

So far I'm with 3 more alternatives to try out:
1. Setting the master of the RM4 significantly higher
2. Swap the V1 of the RM4
3. Swap the Camerock tubes to another module to see how they perform

Sadly I won't have time to do this until this weekend but I shall report the results for sure.

Thanks for all the mesages!

 

[MarcoR]

MarcoR: Closest to the rear input I will assume Do you happen to know what is the function of the other 2 tubes of the RM4?

They are for the buffered loop outputs.

 

[kc2eeb]

I would turn the RM4 Master wide open and adjust the volume on the power amp. Also, take a look at your pick up height on the guitar. If they are too close to the strings, they can actually choke the harmonics. I set my pick ups, first with the amp OFF, to see how the magnetic pull is interacting with the strings. The harmonic has to be there "mechanically." I adjust the pick ups accordingly, usually a lot lower than most players.

 

[JKD]

My RM4 and M4 always sounded best with the MV on it around 2 o'clock, I was feeding them into the series return of my RM50.

 

[kc2eeb]

That's "about" the return line level in the amp. I've actually, using Bruce's matchbox, went series out from the RM50, into the matchbox, into the guitar in jack of the RM4, back to the matchbox, and into series return, in effect using the RM50 as an overdrive to the RM4. Really interesting was the Deluxe module into the Twin module. In the late sixties I wired my Twin reverb Showman amp so the normal channel was in series with the effects channel, a "boost" preamp as it might be called. Someone liked it so much, they stole it. That amp screamed!
The basic idea is "twist them knobs."

 

[suphuckers]

suphuckers: I didn't say the Camerock didn't have the same issue, the thing here is that it is a LOT less noticeable.
Please explain your no brainer, as I've swapped tubes on the other modules and it didn't make a difference, unless you mean that the other modules are just not for me?

Yup that's what I meant ...but more specifically, maybe they aren't up to standards. Maybe you like them, but maybe not as much as you think you do. That being said.... I've managed to improve the sound on my RM100 quite a bit with some tweaking.

I just wanted to give ya that to think about

Good Luck!!