Yet another tube discussion (Salvation Content)

[grunge782]

So I'm going to order 2 of the best recommended tubes I researched for high gain and see what the lab results of my basement comes back with.

I ordered an RFT and a Tesla. I'm going to compare them against a JJ and a Tungsol and get back to you guys.

The only cure to hype is the tried and true result of binging with money right
:wink:

Ah god...

 

[hyenik]

2grunge:
1 - I didn?t say that your new preamps (not amps are bullshit. They perfectly feed your libido, same like mine
(I want to have three orange mods, I don?t need them, I WANT them
2 - I speak after lot of testing, do it same way. And then you don?t need to believe every guitar-rumour. Try different tubes, make samples (No samples = no real comparison, only personal feeling) I will be glad, change my mind and apologize to you, if you show me bigger difference than for example speaker.) I still have in my memories our shock, when we tried recto and marshall (and other amps) through one cab (one guitarist, one riff, one guitar) and differencies were really small. And one amp through different speakers.....differencies were much much bigger!!! This is our knowledge after 7 years of digging in guitar sound.
3 - For higain rhythm guitar is important (only by me, try it, not neccesary to believe me WHAT - WHO - SPEAKER (this is 80% of sound, everything else is rest) OK I didn?t talk about situation that you try to make higain riffs on 12string Rickenbacker, Blackface and 8" Jensen ... let me say, normal higain gear. For soloing is most important player?s hands, 10x more then everything else. I ask everytime - WHY VAI SOUNDS EVERYTIME LIKE VAI???? with Bogner, VHT, Carvin, Marshall whatever....... maybe he use some special tubes
4 - And of course, Yes, that is differencies, but so small, that in complete mix are absolutely not important. And I take care only about complete mix, because ALONE ON STAGE, I play only with my acoustic guitar.
5 - This sound called BRUTAL here (= overgained + no mids +huge basses) is nightmare for all sound engineers and producers, because is NOT possible to hear in mix. And this sound is typical mistake for amateurs, beginers and guitarists with no sense for band playing. For me is still surprise that people spending thousands of bucks for having BMS (Boss Metalzone Sound) But this is not my money, so nevermind...

My personal advise is focusing for really worth things. You have Mills box, that must be OK, because has mighty hype (btw especially cabs, this is not magic, mojo or something else. Exist tons of good cabs from really cheap to overpriced, like Mills But no doubt, Mills is good. So another important part is your hands. Training of them brings to you better sound, then every tube in the world. And again, try it, but I bet then after 5 years and hundreds of bucks you will give +1 (or not, who knows But I definitelly spent this time by playing and composing.

and why MTS? Because it gives you FLAVOUR of best (and most expensive) amps for couple of bucks! And that?s great, or not? Again hail to Egnater, Randall and all modders, thank you.
PS: Yesterday I just recorded some "comparison" between real Ectasy and Salvation Xtacy, so stay tuned

 

[maximus1]

brutal is not scooped tone. nobody does that anymore. and nobody has used a metal zone in a decade at least. the young kids these days probably don't even know what one is. if the most popular amp for this kind of music is a 6505 how could that be a nightmare for sound guys its all mids. mids=brutal, not beehive

 

[grunge782]

2grunge:
1 - I didn?t say that your new preamps (not amps are bullshit. They perfectly feed your libido, same like mine
(I want to have three orange mods, I don?t need them, I WANT them
2 - I speak after lot of testing, do it same way. And then you don?t need to believe every guitar-rumour. Try different tubes, make samples (No samples = no real comparison, only personal feeling) I will be glad, change my mind and apologize to you, if you show me bigger difference than for example speaker.) I still have in my memories our shock, when we tried recto and marshall (and other amps) through one cab (one guitarist, one riff, one guitar) and differencies were really small. And one amp through different speakers.....differencies were much much bigger!!! This is our knowledge after 7 years of digging in guitar sound.
3 - For higain rhythm guitar is important (only by me, try it, not neccesary to believe me WHAT - WHO - SPEAKER (this is 80% of sound, everything else is rest) OK I didn?t talk about situation that you try to make higain riffs on 12string Rickenbacker, Blackface and 8" Jensen ... let me say, normal higain gear. For soloing is most important player?s hands, 10x more then everything else. I ask everytime - WHY VAI SOUNDS EVERYTIME LIKE VAI???? with Bogner, VHT, Carvin, Marshall whatever....... maybe he use some special tubes
4 - And of course, Yes, that is differencies, but so small, that in complete mix are absolutely not important. And I take care only about complete mix, because ALONE ON STAGE, I play only with my acoustic guitar.
5 - This sound called BRUTAL here (= overgained + no mids +huge basses) is nightmare for all sound engineers and producers, because is NOT possible to hear in mix. And this sound is typical mistake for amateurs, beginers and guitarists with no sense for band playing. For me is still surprise that people spending thousands of bucks for having BMS (Boss Metalzone Sound) But this is not my money, so nevermind...

My personal advise is focusing for really worth things. You have Mills box, that must be OK, because has mighty hype (btw especially cabs, this is not magic, mojo or something else. Exist tons of good cabs from really cheap to overpriced, like Mills But no doubt, Mills is good. So another important part is your hands. Training of them brings to you better sound, then every tube in the world. And again, try it, but I bet then after 5 years and hundreds of bucks you will give +1 (or not, who knows But I definitelly spent this time by playing and composing.

and why MTS? Because it gives you FLAVOUR of best (and most expensive) amps for couple of bucks! And that?s great, or not? Again hail to Egnater, Randall and all modders, thank you.
PS: Yesterday I just recorded some "comparison" between real Ectasy and Salvation Xtacy, so stay tuned

1. I wasn't talking about you thinking my preamps are bullshit. The guy who made my Titan 100w (Zach) thought NOS tubes were BS.

2. I didn't disagree with you about the speakers, we are definitely on the same page here. Speakers>Tube. Also, what specific tubes did you try?

There are certain quirks about preamp tubes I've noticed between for instance a Sovtek vs. a JJ such as the smoothness of the gain that a speaker change doesn't necessarily "fix".

3. Again we agree. The player is the most important thing (no ****) when using gear.

5. I most definitely use mids, in fact I obsessively mess around with them.

I wish I could agree with you on the cab front but I really can't. I've played my ht-5, engl, and my Titan 100w through a mills vs. a marshall and a randall. The difference was extremely noticeable. The mills had a fullness and clarity to it that I really have never heard before. It was enough of a difference on my friend's rig that I felt like it was a worthy investment. 959 new for an amazing cab (check out the design differences (Afterburner baffle)), with superior service with 4 v30's or other celestions is a bad deal? A Marshall is only 10 dollars less http://guitars.musiciansfriend.com/product/Marshall-1960V-280W-4x12-Guitar-Extension-Cabinet?sku=605014
There is a reason why you can't find any Mills used. When somebody spends 1700 on a cab (diezel) I call them out on it. I feel very satisfied with my investment, especially knowing that if anything goes wrong I have amazing customer service behind me.

Let me make it clear that I'm not the kind of person who generally goes and has to buy the "best" possible thing out there. I think I am more of a bang for your buck guy. Hell I got my Titan for about 1000 (about the same price as a 6505). It's not like I'm out getting Bogners or Diezels or something. The thing that made me actually become interested in NOS tubes is that it lasts for a much longer time than other tubes. If a jj and a NOS tube both lasted 1 year, I would choose the JJ or Tungsol 100 percent of the time. However, having supposedly tonal differences as well makes it even more interesting for me.

 

[kc2eeb]

O.K. My 2 cents for whatever it's worth.
Nothing will affect you tone as dramatically as your string height and pickup height. Then your frets and string gauge.
You can't duplicate the sound of output tube overdrive(distortion) pushing
speakers also being pushed into their "sweet spot" in the preamp alone.
All tubes vary.
Closed back cabinets don't develope their sound until at least 10-15 feet from the speaker.
It's ALL about midrange.
High gain amp+standard output pickups=great tone.
It's in your fingers.

 

[grunge782]

I feel like this conversation is turning into what affects your tone the most instead of the original content of just the tubes themselves... I'd like to get it back on topic with people's experiences with the TUBES, everything else being the same.

 

[kc2eeb]

The most consistent 12ax7 type tube I ever used were any of the 7025s from the 60s and 70s branded RCA & GE. I still have some in the 3 Seymour Duncan Convertible amps. During those years, the European made tubes generally did not last and were more fragile and inconsistent.
So, if you're looking for durability, on average, find some N.O.S. 7025s from that era.
Then, take the head OFF the speakers and put it on a stand.
Vibration is the #1 cause of tube damage.

 

[grunge782]

The most consistent 12ax7 type tube I ever used were any of the 7025s from the 60s and 70s branded RCA & GE. I still have some in the 3 Seymour Duncan Convertible amps. During those years, the European made tubes generally did not last and were more fragile and inconsistent.
So, if you're looking for durability, on average, find some N.O.S. 7025s from that era.
Then, take the head OFF the speakers and put it on a stand.
Vibration is the #1 cause of tube damage.

Thanks man! I have a separate rack that I made myself so I put my head on that.

I've recently noticed from some reading that there are a ton of fakes out there for NOS tubes, especially on the Bay. Do you know of any good dealers?

 

[kc2eeb]

Doug's Tubes....
Stand up guy..No B.S.

 

[grunge782]

Anybody know about the PI? I heard it's good to use a 12at7. However, there was something about it being evenly balanced or something of that sort for a correct signal to go through. I've looked around at tube depot. There's a matched test and a balanced triode test. Which one do you test for it to be a superior PI?

 

[kc2eeb]

In order of gain, highest first.
12ax7, 12at7,12au7
A 12at7 simply has a lower gain factor.
Try it you MAY like it. You'll have to raise the master to get the same volume.
These tubes are all dual triodes and a "matched" or "balanced" tube means that the each triode's gain, and therefore output, is the same or close to it.
Can you hear the difference? Maybe.
What the phase inverter does is take the signal from the preamp and effects and splits the "wave" into positive (going up from and returning to zero) and negative (going down and returning to zero) and feeds it to each side of the power tubes.
The idea of a "balanced" PI tube is to evenly amplify the positive and negative "sweep" so the wave is symmetrical.
Can you hear it? I donno. Can YOU?

 

[grunge782]

In order of gain, highest first.
12ax7, 12at7,12au7
A 12at7 simply has a lower gain factor.
Try it you MAY like it. You'll have to raise the master to get the same volume.
These tubes are all dual triodes and a "matched" or "balanced" tube means that the each triode's gain, and therefore output, is the same or close to it.
Can you hear the difference? Maybe.
What the phase inverter does is take the signal from the preamp and effects and splits the "wave" into positive (going up from and returning to zero) and negative (going down and returning to zero) and feeds it to each side of the power tubes.
The idea of a "balanced" PI tube is to evenly amplify the positive and negative "sweep" so the wave is symmetrical.
Can you hear it? I donno. Can YOU?

Thanks,

I actually kind of knew what a PI does, I just wasn't sure if it made a difference soundwise if it was balanced or matched. I just talked to a friend of mine who is becoming an electrical engineer and he believed that the test was bs :?: Also I think the 12at7 drives the output stage a bit harder if I'm correct.

Also, what do people usually put 12au7 in for?

 

[kc2eeb]

The 12at7 was used in all the Fender black and silverface 2 and 4 output tube modules. I think it has a higher current rating but lower amplification factor. A 5751 is a higher current tube, lower gain (slightly)
The 12au7 was a common PI tube and a lower gain pre tube in "Hifi-Stereo" equipment.
In guitar amp use, it's really about what sounds better to you.
The lower "gain" tubes will, in the PI position, lower the overall noise (hiss, hum).