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Egnater Armageddon
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Spencer4hire
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 7:17 pm    Post subject: Egnater Armageddon Reply with quote

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHWmpG66YWM
Looks and sounds cool!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6XtSEJN5SI&feature=related
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GtrGeorge!
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 10:48 pm    Post subject: 1st impression... Reply with quote

1st impression...
nice amp...but not expandable like our MTS gear.
and btw: does this mean Bruce is no longer working with randall?
The thought crossed my mind...now that there wasnt anything new in modules at NAMM, and Jeff is gone..I read in a post.
Can anyone clarify?
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GtrGeorge!
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 12:33 pm    Post subject: bump Reply with quote

bump
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SimonSezz
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 1:15 pm    Post subject: Re: 1st impression... Reply with quote

GtrGeorge! wrote:
1st impression...
nice amp...but not expandable like our MTS gear.
and btw: does this mean Bruce is no longer working with randall?
The thought crossed my mind...now that there wasnt anything new in modules at NAMM, and Jeff is gone..I read in a post.
Can anyone clarify?


In the video of Bruce talking during NAMM, he mentions that they are working on new more affordable and mass produced (probably made in China) modules. Who knows when or if they will come out.
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m0jo
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 4:06 am    Post subject: Re: 1st impression... Reply with quote

SimonSezz wrote:
GtrGeorge! wrote:
1st impression...
nice amp...but not expandable like our MTS gear.
and btw: does this mean Bruce is no longer working with randall?
The thought crossed my mind...now that there wasnt anything new in modules at NAMM, and Jeff is gone..I read in a post.
Can anyone clarify?


In the video of Bruce talking during NAMM, he mentions that they are working on new more affordable and mass produced (probably made in China) modules. Who knows when or if they will come out.


That would be awesome!
And probably a great modding platform Smile

But that will get them in exactly the same market as Randall .. I can see that going horribly wrong. Confused
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Daryl
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 1:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really don't like the idea of more Chinese made modules and amps. The quality always suffers. I think that the Armageddon is a pretty cool amp, but I would rather have my RM100 any day. I can get exactly what I'm looking for and can radically adjust my head to match the style I am going for.
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m0jo
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 3:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Daryl wrote:
I really don't like the idea of more Chinese made modules and amps. The quality always suffers. I think that the Armageddon is a pretty cool amp, but I would rather have my RM100 any day. I can get exactly what I'm looking for and can radically adjust my head to match the style I am going for.

Personally I'd love to have some cheap(ish) modules next to the USA line.
Budget modules basically.

Why? Because there are some tones I'd like to have but woudn't use enough to justify the cost.
Plus it allows for some cheaper experimentation..
And they'd be the perfect base for modding ^^
But okay the quality will probably be lower.. as long as the price is lower as well and the current line stays in existence I don't have a problem with it.
But .. I'm afraid it's probably going to be either Chinese or USA.
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Daryl
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally, I would like to see a line of modules that are good enough quality that they don't require modding to get a great tone. I think that everything that the modders are doing could be replicated and made more affordable by making them production models. Considering the inflated cost of a module and mod. I think people would welcome a module they didn't have to send off in the mail to get it to sound right. It is very feasible to produce USA made production models for well under $350 that replicate the finest tones available. All of the best amp tones and versatile switching options. Seriously, isn't that what the MTS system is supposed to be all about?
In an era where the Axe Fx threatens to take the crown, can we really afford to buy modded modules at around $450 each. To outfit and RM4 that's around $1800!! At that point it begs the question: If I am looking for accurate amp sims, doesn't it make more sense to buy a unit that can do all the amp sounds instead of getting modded modules one by one in the hopes that they are the right sound? For those of us that already own MTS gear, it makes sense to buy more modules. However, the future marketability of the MTS system hinges upon the value and tone of the system in stock form. If you tell people that MTS is awesome, but if you want it to sound good you will have to invest another $800+...Well, it sounds pretty silly now...
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m0jo
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Daryl wrote:
Personally, I would like to see a line of modules that are good enough quality that they don't require modding to get a great tone. I think that everything that the modders are doing could be replicated and made more affordable by making them production models. Considering the inflated cost of a module and mod. I think people would welcome a module they didn't have to send off in the mail to get it to sound right. It is very feasible to produce USA made production models for well under $350 that replicate the finest tones available. All of the best amp tones and versatile switching options. Seriously, isn't that what the MTS system is supposed to be all about?
In an era where the Axe Fx threatens to take the crown, can we really afford to buy modded modules at around $450 each. To outfit and RM4 that's around $1800!! At that point it begs the question: If I am looking for accurate amp sims, doesn't it make more sense to buy a unit that can do all the amp sounds instead of getting modded modules one by one in the hopes that they are the right sound. For those of us that already own MTS gear, it makes sense to buy more modules. However, the future marketability of the MTS system hinges upon the value and tone of the system in stock form. If you tell people that MTS is awesome, but if you want it to sound good you will have to invest another $800+...Well, it sounds pretty silly now...


Your whole story is based on the fact that modules "have to be modded to sound right"... which is just plainly not true.
The stock modules are good, better than a shiteload of amps in this range (IMO of course).
But modding is custom building a circuit, this cannot be replicated in a factory.
This for the simple fact that a modder will actually listen to a module and tweak the values per module.

I think a lot of people get too hung up on the "amp sims" aspect as you call it.
The MTS is a system that allows you to get very close to those tones yes.
But exactly the same.. no of course not, just because of the fact that the circuits are in this system and not point-to-point in a head with their specific poweramp and transformers.

On the other hand, Randall could make the modules more high-end, like Egnater.
The thing that sparked this was Egnater moving their module producing to China or whatever, I think you're concentrating on Randall's.
Eggy modules aren't being modded at nearly the scale that Randall's modules are, simply because Bruce uses higher quality caps etc. and I believe they do a lower level of building per module (like I described above, but I'm not sure if this, it could just be an assembly line without this custom touch).

In short: no what the modders do cannot be replicated, maybe approached but not replicated.
Also I'm getting tired of comparisons of the Axe-fx with MTS .. it's a different beast completely to me.
It might sound awesome, but there's still that feel of a fire breathing tube amp that it just lacks to me.
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Daryl
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree that stock modules sound good without mods. I own several. If they did not sound good I would not have purchased the amp. I don't think there is a quality difference between the Eggy and Randall modules based on this post by RD/Steve: http://mtsforum.grailtone.com/viewtopic.php?t=6689 (It's a couple posts into the thread.)
RD/Steve
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Posted: Wed May 20, 2009 9:05 am Post subject:
from Doug himself:
Ok everyone, since I've developed the Randall MTS line from the beginning with Bruce I want to fill everyone in on the differences between the Randall and Egnater models. With the amplifiers themselves, pretty everything is identical other than we use a CMEC transformer and Bruce uses a Heyboer. The specs used to build both transformers are identical and you will notice the size and weight are the same as well. We can honestly use the Heyboer or any other transformer we want, but we did not and do not notice any tone or performance difference at low or high volumes between the 2 transformers.

The tonal differences lie in the different capacitor values that we use to voice our modules specifically for the high gain player. These small capacitor value differences is what everyone hears and feels. That is why the Randall sounds tighter and more aggressive and the Egnater sounds a bit thicker but also a bit looser. Honestly everyone, Bruce uses the same Electronics supplier that we use. Where do you think the new Egnater Tourmaster came and comes from. That's right, the same factory that produces and stuffs many of our PCB boards. We all buy from and use the same part suppliers, Mouser, Digikey, etc... to stuff our circuit boards.

I just wanted to clear this up. Everyone seems to think that softer deeper low end means better build quality and better components. It's real simple, we voice our modules to our player and Bruce voices his modules to his player. I assure you that both are being made using the same high component quality.

I hope everyone finds a tone they like whether it's a Egnater or a Randall module, because we have the whole gammit covered.
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The values of certain components are just different. They are essentially the same damn thing. I believe the reason that Randall modules are more commonly modded is because they are a cheaper buy in than the Eggy ones and people would rather risk a Randall and keep the Eggy ones stock. People also think that the Eggy ones are higher quality.
Since it is a given that no module or amp model will make the tone of any given amp to perfection, that is really a moot point. Even amplifiers of the same make and model can sound/feel different because many of the components can have tolerances +/-30%. To say that a circuit cannot be replicated is a fallacy. The only difference between one circuit and the next is it's signal path and component values. It is kind of silly to subscribe to the idea that there is some kind of special magical mojo that makes something as logical as circuitry superior to a circuit with the same layout and values. As far as "custom touch" goes, that is a pretty superstitious concept as well. I mean, does it refer to using solder on a board correctly or what? There is a finite amount of "touch" involved in circuit building. It is either correct and cleanly done or it is not. I know many, many people that have exceptional soldering skills.
Now the thing about what the modders may offer that separates them from the pack is actual testing of the components to determine their actual values versus their printed values. Once again this is because of the wide component tolerances. They are all talented engineers and I'll bet they have their designs blue-printed and they use those schematics for reference every time they mod a module. To replicate a modded module, it would require matching the values and testing the components to determine if they are within close tolerance. If modders can do it, an adequate quality controlled production facility can do it. Modern electronic test equipment allows for tighter tolerances and more accurate testing than was available when many of these "amps" were originally introduced.
I get it...You are affiliated with the modders. That's cool. Don't get me wrong, I respect what they do and appreciate the fact that they have raised the bar in relation to what the MTS modules can be. I think that Randall should put them on the payroll and compensate them handsomely. I am just too much of a realist to subscribe to the idea that a circuit cannot be replicated. I have worked for years in the quality department of an ISO 9001-2000 facility cost estimating mil-spec components for US military contract builds. Tolerances are my life.
I do agree with you about the Axe Fx lacking something that a fire breathing tube amp exemplifies. The issue is the future marketability of the MTS versus the Axe to new buyers. The modders have taken advantage of a market created by a demand, created by a lack of features and amp tones not being satisfied currently by MTS/MOD manufacturers. The reality is that there are a lot of cool new products out there and only a volatile, limited market to sell them to. As Egnater and Randall continue to make entries into the amp market, they have neglected the MTS/MOD series to a large degree. When was the last time they produced a legitimately "new" module? There is no such thing as Magic, just effective tricks.
Peace. Very Happy
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m0jo
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Daryl wrote:
I agree that stock modules sound good without mods. I own several. If they did not sound good I would not have purchased the amp. I disagree that Eggy modules are higher quality based on:
http://mtsforum.grailtone.com/viewtopic.php?t=10938
The values of certain components are just different. They are essentially the same damn thing. I believe the reason that Randall modules are more commonly modded is because they are a cheaper buy in than the Eggy ones and people would rather risk a Randall and keep the Eggy ones stock. People also think that the Eggy ones are higher quality.
Since it is a given that no module or amp model will make the tone of any given amp to perfection, that is really a moot point. Even amplifiers of the same make and model can sound/feel different because many of the components can have tolerances +/-30%. To say that a circuit cannot be replicated is a fallacy. The only difference between one circuit and the next is it's signal path and component values. It is kind of silly to subscribe to the idea that there is some kind of special magical mojo that makes something as logical as circuitry superior to a circuit with the same layout and values. As far as "custom touch" goes, that is a pretty superstitious concept as well. I mean, does it refer to using solder on a board correctly or what? There is a finite amount of "touch" involved in circuit building. It is either correct and cleanly done or it is not. I know many, many people that have exceptional soldering skills.
Now the thing about what the modders may offer that separates them from the pack is actual testing of the components to determine their actual values versus their printed values. Once again this is because of the wide component tolerances. They are all talented engineers and I'll bet they have their designs blue-printed and they use those schematics for reference every time they mod a module. To replicate a modded module, it would require matching the values and testing the components to determine if they are within close tolerance. If modders can do it, an adequate quality controlled production facility can do it. Modern electronic test equipment allows for tighter tolerances and more accurate testing than was available when many of these "amps" were originally introduced.
I get it...You are affiliated with the modders. That's cool. Don't get me wrong, I respect what they do and appreciate the fact that they have raised the bar in relation to what the MTS modules can be. I think that Randall should put them on the payroll and compensate them handsomely. I am just too much of a realist to subscribe to the idea that a circuit cannot be replicated. I have worked for years in the quality department of an ISO 9001-2000 facility cost estimating mil-spec components for US military contract builds. Tolerances are my life.
I do agree with you about the Axe Fx lacking something that a fire breathing tube amp exemplifies. The issue is the future marketability of the MTS versus the Axe to new buyers. The modders have taken advantage of a market created by a demand, created by a lack of features and amp tones not being satisfied currently by MTS/MOD manufacturers. The reality is that there are a lot of cool new products out there and only a volatile, limited market to sell them to. As Egnater and Randall continue to make entries into the amp market, they have neglected the MTS/MOD series to a large degree. When was the last time they produced a "new" module?
There is no such thing as Magic.
Peace. Very Happy

I don't have time to read it all now, so my comments based on a quick scan:
- That link says absolutely nothing about Eg vs. Randall. Wrong link?

- About the "custom touch": I think you misunderstood me there, what I mean is that a modder will actually try to make the sound of every module as good as can be by tweaking the component choice because as you said yourself there is some variance in the components even of the same value (add a lot of slightly different components in a circuit up and you get a different tone, simple as that). Randall does not do this.

- About the circuitry being different in different situations: why don't you try playing through a 30 meter cable and a 1 meter cable and tell me the difference? The pure fact that there's more circuitry *around* the actual preamp circuitry will change the tone.
Besides that, there is actually an interaction between guitar, preamp, poweramp and speakers (and between those components themselves).
This interaction will be different when, again, there is other circuitry present between the pre and poweramp. Also poweramps can differ a lot from eachother, although the RT2/50 is a great poweramp it just isn't exactly the same tone as a Mesa or Fender or Marshall poweramp.

Magic.. no, logic.. yes.

EDIT: That post from RD/Steve was mainly aimed at the difference between the amps themselves I believe, but yes he makes a good marketing point..
But here's an Eg module, for comparison pull out one of your Randall modules and see wether *any* components are of the same type..


I see Silver Mica caps, higher grade resistors and other caps, different relays even!
Plus it says "tone first!" on there, can't argue with PCB my friend! Laughing
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Daryl
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry...fixed the problem...Posted the proper link and text... Smile
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Daryl
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

m0jo wrote:

- about the "custom touch": I think you misunderstood me there, what I mean is that a modder will actually try to make the sound of every module as good as can be by tweaking the component choice because as you said yourself there is some variance in the components even of the same value (add a lot of slightly different components in a circuit up and you get a different tone, simple as that). Randall does not do this.
- about the circuitry being different in different situations: why don't you try playing through a 30 meter cable and a 1 meter cable and tell me the difference? The pure fact that there's more circuitry *around* the actual preamp circuitry will change the tone.
Magic.. no, logic.. yes.

Thanks Mojo.
I appreciate your views. The custom touch that refers to the modders engineering the sound to get it to match is a very subjective and skilled task. However, once the prototype is made, it can be replicated rather consistently with quality control and the schematic as guide. How do you think they are doing it?
As far as the difference in cable length...Cable length will only really have a significant effect on a signal that is high impedance. Because of the inherent capacitance of the cable it has the effect of attenuating high frequencies. There are several buffers designed into the MTS system.
As far as power sections being different that just makes it rather impossible for any amp to be precisely like the original it is emulating.
The original fact remains: It is entirely possible to design a module as good as a modded module, utilize quality control to achieve consistent production models, and thereby reduce the overall cost.
Come on now... Shocked
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ThatGuitarGuy
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was originally checking out this amp but knowing that I can get an Axe-FX for about the same price and it can do far more, I can't help but pass.

It's a well needed addition to the selection of metal amps though. Having the ability to have a pristine clean channel with a really good rhythm/lead channel is great. The ISP decimater is a great touch along with the mid boost/cut feature.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just noticed, Bruce seems super nervous in that vid!
Shaking hand and a bit of a quivering voice..
Strange, because I've seen him in a lot of video's where he's pretty relaxed and natural.

Daryl:
Yes okay, it's possible to approach the modders' quality by using a modder's superiour design , the right components and good quality control.
But you won't have that personal tweaking of the modder by ear, I personally believe that contributes a lot to why those modded modules have a lot more character instead of a mass-produced feel.
I can appreciate that having less value to other people..
Something else to keep in mind: upgraded components will up the cost of the modules.

Idea for Randall:
Maybe Randall could do a "Premium" line or something, where the components are all upgraded and circuits done by good guys they can hire (that doesn't persee mean the current MTS modders, there are many tube-magicians out there).
Stick the price around the signature line, which is right in between the normal modules and modded.
Bam, Randall is in the boutique section of the business.
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