Recommend a Module for this tone...

[Kapo_Polenton]

A lot of good points made there... always amazed at the fretwork on some of the pricier guitars out there. I usually run my fingers up and down the neck to feel how rough or jagged the frets are. I'm not going to like that when it comes time to shred..

Another consideration is the consistency of the bodies. The Charvels coming out now seem pretty consistent.. some other more budget friendly brands I've tried have let me down a bit in the tonal characteristics of the body. I do have one older more beat up epiphone with Alnico II's in it which is unbelievable though. Plays great, good weight to the body, sounds fantastic. I've also gone the custom route and been dissapointed too. I guess when it comes down to it, a good setup can make any guitar playable, poor tone from the neck or body won't always be helped by the setup though That's why it is a bit of a crap shoot buying guitars on line. Always better to try them in person.

 

[m0jo]

Epi's I have played have always felt very good for their price. And yes I've seen some pretty horrid Gibsons. On the whole I've just never been a Les Paul guy, so a "budget" Les Paul just really doesn't get me stoked at all.

What bugs me about Epi's is the finish always feels like it's so thick the body can barely resonate. Also generally pretty thick necks, thicker than Gibsons in my experience.. but then these are experiences from at least 4 years ago.

I do agree that buying a $3000 guitar and having to set it up is just ridiculous. My SV5470 was even perfectly tuned coming in!

 

[Mike P]

I guess when it comes down to it, a good setup can make any guitar playable, poor tone from the neck or body won't always be helped by the setup though

That's why it is a bit of a crap shoot buying guitars on line. Always better to try them in person.

It's next to impossible to play a guitar in store these days.

When I first moved to Los Angeles 20 years ago, Sunset Boulevard from Gardner to Martel was "Guitar Row". Literally dozens of shops with new and used guitars. Once Guitar Center went public, they squeezed out all the little guys and by 2004, all that remained was Sam Ash, Guitar Center, Carvin and Mesa/Boogie.

Since Bain Capital purchased GC (and subsequently, Musician's Friend), they only allow a limited amount of inventory on hand. Everything is special order. The Guitar Center Hollywood, which is their flagship store, will have a few high end Gibson's and Fender's and a ton of low end (sub-$300) guitars on hand at all times. With amps, it's mostly the cheapies.

And forget about accessories like pickups, bridges and even pickup rings! No one has them but they can "order them for me". Duh, so can I.

That said, places like American Music Supply offer 45 day returns (as does MF). I ordered a higher end ESP Les Paul in December, which was complete crap, and sending it back couldn't have been easier. I called, told them I wanted to return and they immediately emailed a UPS shipping label.

Since every manufacturer, whether it's in the U.S., Mexico, Korea, Japan or China, is using automation for their guitars, there's not much difference these days between guitars made overseas and guitars made in the U.S. The main difference is price, then hardware and pickups.

But since you can purchase a nice Les Paul with mahogany wood and a maple cap for $500 or so, throwing a few hundred extra dollars in for pickup of choice, locking tuners and Tone Pro's bridges isn't a big deal, especially when the result is just as good, if not better, than it's U.S. made counterpart.

 

[Mike P]

On the whole I've just never been a Les Paul guy, so a "budget" Les Paul just really doesn't get me stoked at all.

My main Les Paul is a 2004 Epiphone Elitist Custom model with Tone Pro's tune-o-matic and stop tailpiece. It also has a 57 in the neck and an Burstbucker Pro in the bridge. It sounds so good and feels so perfect that my 1993 Les Paul Classic Premium Plus top has been recorded exactly once since that time. Every track I've ever posted in this forum, outside of one (the Salvation HiWatt) has been the Elitist when a Les Paul has been indicated.

I bought it for $799.99 and if they still made them, I'd buy their whole line of Elitist models because they were absolutely amazing, especially the J-200.

What bugs me about Epi's is the finish always feels like it's so thick the body can barely resonate.

I haven't experienced that, at all. The 2004 Elitist was supposed to be a back up Les Paul but since it became my main LP, I purchased an Epiphone Broadway and Wildkat that year. I replace the nuts with a bone nut, the pickups with Gibson's and the bridges with Gotoh's (on the Wildkat, I used a locking Wilkinson Roller Bridge because of the Bigsby).

In 2007, I added a Epiphone '57 Reissue Les Paul Junior in which I replaced the nut and installed a P90. The guitar is killer. Just this year, I purchased an Epiphone Prophecy GX in which I added the Tone Pro's, Grover Locking Tuners, EMG's and had my tech cut a bone nut. The guitar is insanely cool sounding and looks amazing.

And finally, I did something I should have done years ago, which was to purchase an Epi Jack Casady semi-hollow body bass. I pulled it out of the box, lowered the bridge and began tracking immediately. The intonation was perfect, the neck was perfect and it already had a bone nut.

I've never had an experience like that in my entire life. Every other guitar and bass I've ever owned needed some pretty serious modification (and time!) for me to be able to record it.

Also generally pretty thick necks, thicker than Gibsons in my experience. but then these are experiences from at least 4 years ago.

I think it would depend on the model. My '57 has a thicker neck because '57's had thicker necks. The Broadway feels exactly like an L5 or Byrdland, the LP Custom feels like a Custom and the Wildkat feels in between a 335 and a LP. The LP Prophecy has a slimmer, satin finished neck (which is awesome!) but it's not as slim as the Gibson 1960 Classic I own, which is so slim that it gives me headaches due to constantly requiring truss rod adjustments.

Anyway, if you really want to check out a Les Paul without spending a ridiculous amount of jack, or buying a low-end Gibson that will undoubtedly need hours of fret work (trust me on that!), check out the Epi model I linked above. You may like it or you may hate it but I'd love to hear your thoughts if you get a chance to play one!

:wink:

 

[djd100]

Gibson has had a weird history. The guitars made in the 50's to late 60's were some of the finest guitars ever made (although there were many stinkers created during that time as well). Most of their guitars manufactured from about 1972-1989 were not very good, IMO. They didn't care about the wood, which resulted in super heavy bodies that weren't dried properly and were essentially "water logs".

True, though for Les Pauls the magic ended in late 69/early 70 when Norlin bought Gibson and went to laminated bodies and necks with volutes.

My first Les Paul was a 1968 Les Paul Goldtop Deluxe that cost $300 dollars. The previous owner had routed the bridge and loaded it with a Dimarzio Distortion pickup and Schaller tuners. It was a great sounding guitar but I sold it a few years later in favor of a Jackson.

Pretty smart.

On a side note, the mini-humbuckers came about because Gibson had too many "New York" pickups lying around from their Epiphone models. Unfortunately, they didn't sound very good in a mahogany/maple Les Paul along with the nasty noise of pickup feedback and squealing, which is why virtually everyone that played rock music replaced the bridge pickup with a standard sized humbucker.

Close, though the real reason mini-humbuckers were put on LP's was that after the LP was reintroduced in late 68/early 69 everyone complained that they didn't have HB's, so Norlin in their infinite wisdom decided to use the left over Mini-HB's to save a few bucks as they wouldn't need to re-rout the P90 routed bodies. After everyone still complained and major retailers started ordering custom runs with full sized HB's they finally added full sized HB's.

That said though, Steve Miller, Steve Lukather, and Pete Townsend to name a few all made great sounds with Mini-HB's back in the day, so they weren't that bad assuming the individuel pup in question was wound tight enough to not be overly microphonic.

BTW, I've got an early 69 LP converted with real 59 PAF's which I got for $300 way back when too (refinished natural with P90's when I got it).

I've also got a Chinese LP clone that is built like crap, but plays and sounds great with added bone nut, bridge, and pups, that only cost $200 a few years ago LOL! Cheap guitars can be killer if you set them up good.

 

[Mike P]

Close, though the real reason mini-humbuckers were put on LP's was that after the LP was reintroduced in late 68/early 69 everyone complained that they didn't have HB's, so Norlin in their infinite wisdom decided to use the left over Mini-HB's to save a few bucks as they wouldn't need to re-rout the P90 routed bodies. After everyone still complained and major retailers started ordering custom runs with full sized HB's they finally added full sized HB's.

Yep. I forgot about Norlin.

That said though, Steve Miller, Steve Lukather, and Pete Townsend to name a few all made great sounds with Mini-HB's back in the day, so they weren't that bad assuming the individuel pup in question was wound tight enough to not be overly microphonic.

Yeah, that was the biggest complaint I heard about them back then but I was just a teenager. My neck pickup wasn't microphonic and sounded really smooth.

I regret selling that guitar every day that I think about it. The Jackson? Not so much.

BTW, I've got an early 69 LP converted with real 59 PAF's which I got for $300 way back when too (refinished natural with P90's when I got it).

Awesome!

I've also got a Chinese LP clone that is built like crap, but plays and sounds great with added bone nut, bridge, and pups, that only cost $200 a few years ago LOL! Cheap guitars can be killer if you set them up good.

Yep. As long as the wood isn't complete *****, mahagony and maple with good hardware and pickups can sound as good as any Les Paul made, regardless of factory or vintage. The setup is key.



PS - Many of the Epiphone Les Paul's floating around ARE NOT mahogany and maple, as those tended to cut into Gibson's profits. There are a ton from the 90's and mid-2000's that are alder with a "photo-finish", meaning the top is a picture. There are others that are mahogany with an alder top and photo finish. Suffice to say, they sound pretty awful to my ears, even after replacing the hardware and pickups.

Avoid at all cost, IMO.

 

[djd100]

Yeah, but it depends...

My solid Chinese LP's body is made out of a soft pine like wood so it's really lightweight at 7.5lbs (neck is maple/rosewood), and it's a lot brighter than my other LP's (the 69 in the pic at 9lbs, and a later chambered all mahogany Studio at 6.5lbs). Because it's bright the clone does well with hotter pups. It has a vintage 70's Duncan JB in the bridge at 16K/Ceramic, and a SD P-Rail in the neck, so it's really good at being a Tele on steroids kind of guitar, and it rocks real well with UK style amps (Marshall, Orange, Hiwatt, Vox, Matchless etc).

I'd say if you want a cheap LP to sound like a real LP then be extra careful, though if you want a LP style guitar for a different use then the cheapies can go places the real ones can't and can be cool in that regard with the right upgrades.

PS - Many of the Epiphone Les Paul's floating around ARE NOT mahogany and maple, as those tended to cut into Gibson's profits. There are a ton from the 90's and mid-2000's that are alder with a "photo-finish", meaning the top is a picture. There are others that are mahogany with an alder top and photo finish. Suffice to say, they sound pretty awful to my ears, even after replacing the hardware and pickups.

Avoid at all cost, IMO.

 

[Kapo_Polenton]

Little off topic from the original thread but in line with the more recent posts... any of you guys when talking setups of the more budget minded guitars ever experience some dead or buzzing/rubbing sound when lightly palm muting open strings ? I'm wondering if this plinkiness is due to nut issues or saddle/bridge issues. (often one of the places manufacturers save money- hardware) Do I have two duds or can these be made into toneful guitars. Both feel good to play but unfortunately, do not sound that great.

 

[rblyn]

Another consideration is the consistency of the bodies. The Charvels coming out now seem pretty consistent..

Absolutely agree with this! I have switched over to using Charvels for everything...Though as mentioned by Mike P in an earlier post- They may not be the best choice for super dropped tuned metal. I have a few of these and they are tuned either a half step down or standard and just love the necks/alder bodies. Works great for me

 

[Kapo_Polenton]

I'd think dropped D tuning would be better suited to mahogany or basswood but I guess these metal bands use just about everything to get that tone except single coils :roll:

 

[Mike P]

Another consideration is the consistency of the bodies. The Charvels coming out now seem pretty consistent..

Absolutely agree with this! I have switched over to using Charvels for everything...Though as mentioned by Mike P in an earlier post- They may not be the best choice for super dropped tuned metal. I have a few of these and they are tuned either a half step down or standard and just love the necks/alder bodies. Works great for me

The Charvel bodies are just Fender bodies now. I'm glad they're consistent but with all due respect, they're nothing out of the ordinary. I'd posit that the bodies produced by Warmoth are superior and Mighty Mite are just as good or better.

Not to insult you or the other members, the problem *I* have with Charvel's is that they're using imitation Floyd Rose's made in Korea and the metallurgy is "wrong" when compared to the Original Floyd Rose made in Germany. Also, the anodizing process "deadens" sustain and tone to my ears. The necks are "okay" but they're not as cool as the original San Dimas necks from the early 80's (before they were purchased by IMC and run into the ground).

But as you can probably tell, I'm highly particular about every aspect of a guitar, especially the 80's Charvel guitars, so feel free to disregard my pointed comments.

 

[rblyn]

Another consideration is the consistency of the bodies. The Charvels coming out now seem pretty consistent..

Absolutely agree with this! I have switched over to using Charvels for everything...Though as mentioned by Mike P in an earlier post- They may not be the best choice for super dropped tuned metal. I have a few of these and they are tuned either a half step down or standard and just love the necks/alder bodies. Works great for me

The Charvel bodies are just Fender bodies now. I'm glad they're consistent but with all due respect, they're nothing out of the ordinary. I'd posit that the bodies produced by Warmoth are superior and Mighty Mite are just as good or better.

Not to insult you or the other members, the problem *I* have with Charvel's is that they're using imitation Floyd Rose's made in Korea and the metallurgy is "wrong" when compared to the Original Floyd Rose made in Germany. Also, the anodizing process "deadens" sustain and tone to my ears. The necks are "okay" but they're not as cool as the original San Dimas necks from the early 80's (before they were purchased by IMC and run into the ground).

But as you can probably tell, I'm highly particular about every aspect of a guitar, especially the 80's Charvel guitars, so feel free to disregard my pointed comments.

Yep- Me too....VERY particular but with guitars its different for most everyone. Rarely do I find other pros that use the exact strings/pickups/guitars or set their guitars up with the same action. Its very much a personal preference. Regarding the Floyds- You are referring to the "Ping" Floyds- They have been good to me on my Pro mods but they are not quite the same as the German ones. I recently got a custom shop with a German Floyd and I also had two Original Floyds back in the 80's (were labeled back then as "Schaller") They are the best no doubt but the Korean ones have never given me an issue either. And as far as the necks....They are the best for me- As mentioned I had several 80's Charvels and the necks "were" and "are" what Charvel junkies new and old willalways swear by.. 8)

 

[Mike P]

...They are the best for me- As mentioned I had several 80's Charvels and the necks "were" and "are" what Charvel junkies new and old willalways swear by.. 8)

That's awesome! Maybe they've become better recently because I played three newer Chavel's owned by a friend back in December and they were "meh" at best. Muddy sounding, poor fretwork and just overall, very disappointing. Ironically, he had an IMC Charvel Model One and it blew away the newer models.

I have another friend that purchased the Tele shaped Charvel with an FR and Duncan's, which was even worse. The guitar was a dud acoustically and of course, plugged in. The fret job was unbelievably bad, he told me he would literally cut his fingers from time to time on the edges and I thought he was joking. Once I played it, I realized he was not.

I know that the Charvel line has moved from SoCal to Arizona to Japan and who knows where and once there's that type of movement, QC is compromised. I was ready to purchase my first FR guitar in two decades back in 2011 but after checking out the Charvel's, I opted to build a Warmoth instead, which is just amazing.

If they've got it under control, I'd be interested in the new Charvel EVH guitar, especially for $899 MAP, but those are made overseas, right?

 

[Kapo_Polenton]

Have any of you guys tried the wilkinson bridges? I have often thought about going the custom route at warmoth vs buying off the shelf. I have two custom strats. One is fantastic (guy also makes his own necks and the one he did for me is bitchin) and the other has a mighty mite neck and doesn't blow me away (this is the one i suspect needs a better setup than i can give it) Between the two bodies, the one is noticeably heavier and denser. I think this is what gives it a better tonal feel overall. The Charvel I remember having was just good... not amazing but not horrible. This consistent "good" i think is good for the brand. I just wasn't crazy about the neck. I think MikeP mentioned that. My custom axe has a neck to N4 specs with jumbo frets and it feels fantastic. Lots of people love those new Charvels and especially their necks though. I guess it is a to each their own. I do agree though, there is only so much a body can be. Unless people are hand selecting wood, large machines cutting and finishing bodies won't take the time weed out the lesser sounding ones. I guess Fender/Charvel has found a way to use consistent woods across the board.

 

[Kapo_Polenton]

I have another friend that purchased the Tele shaped Charvel with an FR and Duncan's, which was even worse. The guitar was a dud acoustically and of course, plugged in. The fret job was unbelievably bad, he told me he would literally cut his fingers from time to time on the edges and I thought he was joking. Once I played it, I realized he was not.

This is a major beef of mine.. I can't understand how some of these guitars pass inspection. When talking higher price points especially, how can they not take the time to file or finish the edges of these frets before shipping them out?? I felt the USA EVH Wolfgang (newest models) in the store the other day and could not believe how rough it felt to me. What am I paying for at that price then!

 

[Mike P]

Have any of you guys tried the wilkinson bridges?

No. I used Gotoh's on Tele's, Strat and Fender basses, Tone Pro's (which are manufactured by Gotoh) on Gibson's and Epiphones and the original Floyd Rose only. Not the Schaller or the Korean or the Ibanez Edge.

I have often thought about going the custom route at warmoth vs buying off the shelf.

They have excellent QC in regards to their wood selection. Every body and neck I've ever played or owned is top notch. If it's not the best body or neck, it's right there with the best.

But keep in mind, you'll need to have the frets properly dressed and crowned. All Warmoth does is provide the fretted neck - no dressing, which is essential.

I have two custom strats. One is fantastic (guy also makes his own necks and the one he did for me is bitchin) and the other has a mighty mite neck and doesn't blow me away (this is the one i suspect needs a better setup than i can give it)

Have the frets been properly dressed and crowned? If so, what's the issue? Too high or low at the nut? Does is need shims there or at the body?

Between the two bodies, the one is noticeably heavier and denser. I think this is what gives it a better tonal feel overall.

I've never noticed that a denser, heavier Strat style body of the same wood gave the guitar a better tone. In my experience, it's been the opposite. The lighter the alder or ash, the more the body seems to resonate and "ring".

FTR, I greatly dislike Basswood. It might as well be balsa wood to me.

I guess Fender/Charvel has found a way to use consistent woods across the board.

I don't know if they've "found a way" but they do sell palettes of bodies and necks where essentially, it's about $20 bucks a pop. The problem is usually that there are knots or cracks that would be visible and unrepairable.

 

[rblyn]

...They are the best for me- As mentioned I had several 80's Charvels and the necks "were" and "are" what Charvel junkies new and old willalways swear by.. 8)

That's awesome! Maybe they've become better recently because I played three newer Chavel's owned by a friend back in December and they were "meh" at best. Muddy sounding, poor fretwork and just overall, very disappointing. Ironically, he had an IMC Charvel Model One and it blew away the newer models.

I have another friend that purchased the Tele shaped Charvel with an FR and Duncan's, which was even worse. The guitar was a dud acoustically and of course, plugged in. The fret job was unbelievably bad, he told me he would literally cut his fingers from time to time on the edges and I thought he was joking. Once I played it, I realized he was not.

I know that the Charvel line has moved from SoCal to Arizona to Japan and who knows where and once there's that type of movement, QC is compromised. I was ready to purchase my first FR guitar in two decades back in 2011 but after checking out the Charvel's, I opted to build a Warmoth instead, which is just amazing.

If they've got it under control, I'd be interested in the new Charvel EVH guitar, especially for $899 MAP, but those are made overseas, right?

Yep- Some are coming from China, some of the Pro Mods from Japan are still out there (recently scored a new Wildcard from Japan for $499! With hardcase etc...from Sam Ash- Needed a set up bad but I think it was a STEAL!) Now there's a line of San Dimas style guitars coming from Mexico which I am hearing good things about. I believe that EVH you are referring to is also MIM- To your point about that bad Tele (and other duds) I did buy a red Tele style 2 (Made in 2009 I think) that did have some sharp fret edges- It was marked way down and I knew I could work the guitar into something playable and probably sell it for a profit- so I bought it.... I have no idea why they didnt file those down but it was easily fixed. I would also say of all the Charvels I've owned- That one guitar was slightly sub par (even aside from the frets, the paint had settled and you could see where the body and wings seperated through the candy red?) and I did wind up selling it off for a profit I might add. Overall, I think they do have their stuff together- My friend and fellow guitarist Rick Plester builds his own Warmoth style strats and they are absolutely amazing- I would say you could compare his Warmoth with the Custom Shop Charvels- which are a step above all of the production stuff...

 

[Mike P]

I believe that EVH you are referring to is also MIM

Cool! I think the MIM stuff is equal to or better than the guitars made in Corona (and the guitars made in Japan are by the best, especially the QC, which is why they don't sell them in North America).

Please post if check out one of the new VH models. I've always wanted either the black/white or black/yellow and have considered building one for years but if these are cool, what's not to like at $899?

 

[rblyn]

I believe that EVH you are referring to is also MIM

Cool! I think the MIM stuff is equal to or better than the guitars made in Corona (and the guitars made in Japan are by the best, especially the QC, which is why they don't sell them in North America).

Please post if check out one of the new VH models. I've always wanted either the black/white or black/yellow and have considered building one for years but if these are cool, what's not to like at $899?

Now you've piqued my interest on those! Looking at the specs and I've always wanted the black/white myself... I will definitely post if I get my hands on one or get to try one out.

 

[Mike P]

I believe that EVH you are referring to is also MIM

Cool! I think the MIM stuff is equal to or better than the guitars made in Corona (and the guitars made in Japan are by the best, especially the QC, which is why they don't sell them in North America).

Please post if check out one of the new VH models. I've always wanted either the black/white or black/yellow and have considered building one for years but if these are cool, what's not to like at $899?

Now you've piqued my interest on those! Looking at the specs and I've always wanted the black/white myself... I will definitely post if I get my hands on one or get to try one out.

Thanks!