The Mod Code (Where do we draw the line?)

[JKMV12]

I am making this thread because of the thread that Bigbrewtus posted about the Mark mod that he got from a forum member who mod'd it for himself. First i would like to say that i am very disappointed to see that thread play out the way it did. I mean no disrespect to anyone by posting this thread. I do not want to start a war here...i just want to express my opinions. I know it is a very sensitive issue that has come up several times on this forum, but the previous thread i referred to got way out of hand. Lets try to keep tensions down and discuss this issue with level heads. (If you don't want to read this entire thing then i guess you can just skip to the sixth paragraph b/c that is where i make my main point)

The professional modders on this forum are true engineers. Their creations require an understanding of circuit design that takes years and years of learning, experimenting, and experience to develop. I have recently started learning myself and just from the little bit of reading i have done with preamp design i can tell that the work they do for us is not something that we can take for granted. It is this understanding and expertise that we pay for when we buy these mods. Of course part of it is the parts and labor, but the majority of the cost is attributed to the modder's knowledge. And it is more than just knowing how to design the circuit...it is knowing how to adapt the idea or concept to the donor modules. there is not always a spot for a certain component that is needed to make the design complete, so the modders have to do something clever in order to make it work. I am only speculating on this...but i am fairly sure that i am right.

Now we all agree that the modder's designs should NOT be copied for any reason. I wouldn't even consider copying them for learning purposes. There is no benefit in copying them...and i am sure the modders have their own safeguards in place to prevent or inhibit copying. Bottom line is that they should not be copied. Not even for personal use. There is no reason for that anyway. I am only talking about circuit design right now.

What i do support is for our freedom to mod our own modules if we wish to. So what about performing mods as a service even though you are not recognized as a professional modder? I don't see a problem with this...as long as you don't step over any ethical boundaries (i.e. do not copy someone else's work). If someone wants to offer to mod modules as a service then they have the right to. Give me one good reason why this can be bad and i will reconsider my position.

Now the biggest issue i see after reading the previously mentioned thread is the faceplate design. This seems to be the most sensitive part of the debate. The faceplates that are made for/by the modders are great. Now if someone has the means to make a faceplate for their modules then i believe they have the right to do so. Now ideally these personal faceplates should be original and unique. Though if someone were to make a faceplate like the ones offered by the pro modders, i think this would be ok FOR PERSONAL USE. This faceplate should not be sold but If it is to be sold then it should be explicitly stated that it is a personal creation based on someone else's design. That person has to be given credit. I figure this can be done by a simple sticker or notation on the faceplate or module. It should also NOT be turned into a service UNLESS it is truly original work. Now as far as faceplates that take names or elements from other amp companies....if it is for personal use then we can't make any restrictions. If it is being sold or is a service then the name and design should hint towards its origins but overall should be original. The pro modders do a god job of this.

So after writing all of that it seems that it all comes down to two questions: is it for personal use or is it meant to be sold as a service? and if it is a personal item being sold, how should this be dealt with? I think those are the two questions that need to be answered. i believe that anything goes if it is for personal use but once you sell it or offer it a service there are certain ethical and legal boundaries that should not be crossed. I think it is a good idea to explicitly draw these boundaries so that issues like this do not come up again. Something like an "MTS Mod Code." Maybe we can make this a sticky somewhere so that there is no confusion. Just an idea...

I will conclude my post for now. I just want to make it clear that i am only expressing my personal opinion and do not mean any disrespect to anyone. If i have crossed some boundaries myself then i am sorry. I figured something had to be said. If you decide to reply to this thread then please remember to keep a level head. I don't want this to turn into a war or anything like that. I want this to be a friendly discussion. I know it is a sensitive issue and some of you feel very strongly about it...but please remember to be respectful of everyone else's opinions. If you took the time to read this entire thing then i thank you. If not then i understand.

Take Care,
John

 

[vikko98]

I don't write here much at all but I thought I'd leave my opinion. I read most of the mentioned thread but since the first post had been edited out I'm not totally sure of what started it all.

Anyways, copies are always going to exist and has been made for hundreds of years. Just look at stompboxes to take a relevant example, people build clones, and so do I. I think that's totally ok as long as I don't make a profit selling someone else's design. I know there's alot of people selling PCBs based on traced boutique pedals and I believe that's wrong.

And there also the issue regarding ownership. If I ask a modder to mod one of my modules and he/she gets paid for his work/circuit design it is still my module in the end. Therefore I should be entitled to do whatever I want with it. If I try to copy the circuit design to another module then who's gonna stop me? My conscience? Have you ever questioned copying a CD you bought? As long as I don't sell the copy and I do it it for personal use it should be ok, right?

Regarding the design of the faceplate, again it's for personal use. I mean people put together strats and teles and put a Fender-decal on them all the time. I mean Mesa's not going to take any legal action against one individual who ripped off their logo for a module. I thought that was fun. But if the modders were to sell faceplates with another brand's logo that's just wrong.

So my point is, if I should buy all the modules that the modders offer, copy their design, and sell them under my own brand/name I should be hung by the balls. But if I do the same thing but never sell the copies but do it for myself it's ok.


Maybe I'm putting fuel on the fire but I stand for what I just wrote...


/Niklas

 

[m0jo]

I agree with this for the most part.

The only difference with my opinion is about the selling of a faceplate that was meant for own use. I think you should at least contact the person that made the design it's based on and agree on a preffered action. Me personally (please note: my personal opinion, not speaking for Salvation Mods) is that giving credit would be fine in some cases. This is purely talking about (elements of) graphic designs.

What you should realise about these designs is that it's not all business, there's feelings involved too. Without getting too sentimental: a design is my baby, seeing someone else take that perfectly honed piece of graphics (and often butcher it because they don't understand how it was intended) .. that really stings. Not a nice feeling at all.

 

[m0jo]

And there also the issue regarding ownership. If I ask a modder to mod one of my modules and he/she gets paid for his work/circuit design it is still my module in the end. Therefore I should be entitled to do whatever I want with it. If I try to copy the circuit design to another module then who's gonna stop me? My conscience? Have you ever questioned copying a CD you bought? As long as I don't sell the copy and I do it it for personal use it should be ok, right?

Sure, if you are able to copy a mod for yourself, that's not really an issue.
(you'll miss the tweaking and such by the modder .. but ok)
But like you say, as soon as you start selling this you'd go over the line.

 

[RADE01]

Yep, this is good.

 

[Jeff Hilligan]

The line is this, IMO.

Production of a module is only allowed by Egnater and under license to Randall. No one else. This means design, build, sale. Modification to already produced modules is different.

Stealing the look of an amp is just not cool! Not illegal just not cool! In some cases trade dress, or look is enforceable. This is the way the world is now. No one wants to do the work and be creative. I have been contacted to sell "my snorkeler faceplate" and I have no issue selling it when this tact is taken. Credit to Scott, he made it for me but it was my look and vibe! He has always directed the buyer to me before the sale or work is done!

All of the work at Egnater and Randall, on modules, is done to their taste. The Judge, Nut's whatever module is in question, are all a take on an amp and then they developed their own look! Why do you think Randall modules look like they do? Plain chrome or black no feathers are rustled if it sounds like a SLO! Same with Egnater's look.

This is IMO the correct way to do business in the module world. Alas, it's been done since Jim stole from Leo! Same ideas, my ear verses your ear, different look and different marketing!

Whatever we do to the pre amp, it's all a rip off of Bruce's work, Mike's, Howard, Smith's, Leo's, Jim's, no matter how you spin it. We are taking someone else's work and either improving it or not, that is up to the end user. Then when it's pushed into the amp it violates MPG's patent. Sad but true!

Dick swinging begins!


Done.

 

[crankyrayhanky]

let me break down the OP
Electrical Engineering copy= bad
Artistic Copy= ok with citation

That seems like a crap deal for the artist

 

[Mattfig]

let me break down the OP
Electrical Engineering copy= bad
Artistic Copy= ok with citation

That seems like a crap deal for the artist

Nice, succinct and well said....

 

[JKMV12]

let me break down the OP
Electrical Engineering copy= bad
Artistic Copy= ok with citation

That seems like a crap deal for the artist

Nice, succinct and well said....

hey would you look at that..your 2011th post...sorry i had to point it out. its starting to feel kinda tense...we need to fix that...

anyway to the point. i see what you are saying. an artistic copy is bad no matter which way you spin it...but nonetheless we cannot bar someone from doing it for themselves. Once a profit is attempted to be made...then the line is crossed. like m0jo said, at the very least credit should be given to the designer. i say that in this case either the seller should keep the one they made and sell the module with the original faceplate or the seller should contact the designer to discuss the matter.

though in alboz28's case...based on what was said by Bigbrewtus and alboz28, he was not consciously copying a Salvation or Gigmods design. it was meant for his own personal use and then he decided to get out of the MTS stuff. it did look similar to the Salvado Deluxe...though that does not automatically mean he intentionally copied. It isn't easy to be completely original. There are features and nuances in m0jo's designs that make them unique. I didn't get a great look at alboz28's faceplate but i am sure it didn't have all of the features and nuances of the Salvado Deluxe faceplate. Though we agree it did look similar. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Why can't he make a faceplate that has that general look? if we impose a restriction like that...it is like saying you can't make a class AB power amp with EL34 tubes or a strat style guitar because it has already been done. That is ridiculous. I may make a strat guitar...but it won't be like every other strat. I will add my own creative ideas to make it unique. So the faceplates for the Salvado Deluxe by Salvation and the Soldano module by Alboz28 look similar...but there are just as many differences between them and you all know which one is Salvation. There was no competition...no conflict of interest...just a guy who made himself a faceplate for his module and decided to sell his MTS equipment. IMO alboz28 did nothing wrong.

So all in all...copying of any kind is not cool. Though we cannot stop anyone from doing it for personal use. The issue is when a profit is to be made.

 

[Daryl]

The line is this, IMO.

Production of a module is only allowed by Egnater and under license to Randall. No one else. This means design, build, sale. Modification to already produced modules is different.

Stealing the look of an amp is just not cool! Not illegal just not cool! In some cases trade dress, or look is enforceable.
All of the work at Egnater and Randall, on modules, is done to their taste. The Judge, Nut's whatever module is in question, are all a take on an amp and then they developed their own look! Why do you think Randall modules look like they do? Plain chrome or black no feathers are rustled if it sounds like a SLO! Same with Egnater's look.

This is IMO the correct way to do business in the module world. Alas, it's been done since Jim stole from Leo! Same ideas, my ear verses your ear, different look and different marketing!

Whatever we do to the pre amp, it's all a rip off of Bruce's work, Mike's, Howard, Smith's, Leo's, Jim's, no matter how you spin it. We are taking someone else's work and either improving it or not, that is up to the end user. Then when it's pushed into the amp it violates MPG's patent. Sad but true!

Dick swinging begins!

I totally agree, Jeff.
Let me swing the ol' purple pickle for a minute. :lol:
I think the confusion comes in when we consider modded modules to be a product in and of themselves. They are clearly the property of Bruce Egnater. Their licensing to Randall is limited. When a modder utilizes their skills to change the circuit they are doing so within the framework of Bruce's design. Bruce did most of the work already. So while I do respect what the modders are doing, they are really just adding icing to the cake. Within the confines of the circuit design there are a finite amount of mods, many of which are common. We overlook the fact that the modders are stepping on Bruce and Randall's dicks because we love the sounds, but is even that legit? I covered this on the other thread, but I'll reiterate it once again: The only real concerns we should have are for the trademark infringement. Does the mod say, "Salvation" on it? Does it say "Gigmods" on it? The modded circuit paths are not patent-able because they are taken in the process to create the mod. Let me illustrate the point: If I buy a Corvette and put rims and headers on it, it doesn't become the "Daryl 5000". It's just not my design. Even if I blueprint the engine, bore out the cylinders, repaint it and change every detail, the title still reads "Chevy Corvette". They are mechanics and not manufacturers. I think it's just selfish to even try to take ownership of someone else's patented design.
So what's the solution?
What is already being done. Make trademarked mods and do your mods better than anyone else. Let the quality speak for itself. People will copy your design and that is OK. In fact it is inevitable. Imitation is the highest form of compliment. Your designs are copies too. It's when they steal your intellectual property with the intent of using your trademark recognition to increase sales, that you should be pissed. The circuit revisions for the mods is something very good and makes these mods into hot-rods. Modders are hot-rodders like Chip Foose, Boyd Codington or Carroll Shelby. Respected and revered for making a great sports car into a dream machine. I just say, know your place in the scheme of things.
Leave the patented and trademarked property alone and for, fucks sake, don't tell people what they can do with their stuff. That kind of policing is some straight BS. I'll do what I want with my stuff. And I will not buy from anyone that wants to tell me that I can't do something that is within my rights as an individual. **** you....
That said...
I love you guys and I think every drop of tension expressed here is linked to passion. At least we don't have to cut ourselves to see if we still feel pain. We are firecrackers...I can respect that. Doesn't steal my sunshine at all. I love you guys. Greatest forum on Earth...

 

[Murderball]

Interesting topic!
IMO and unfortunately if ever actions were taken this would be the line.
Emotions and how people feel about things in life don't matter when it
comes to things like this. The line is the law, morals and ethics clashing out the window. If they don't want people ripping off what they create they should do exactly what companies do, trademark it and whatever else it takes. I don't know if they do already, but if they don't then they are fair
game to be ripped off at fault of their own. And if things are trademarked and people rip it off then they deal with the consequences. Its plain jane really like with anything else. You break the rules and regs, you deal with the consequences, but if the rules aren't there then its fair game unfortunately.
I personally wouldn't because I am a morals and ethics person, but if someone else would then so be it.

 

[m0jo]

Really, you leave your door open and then it's fine for me to come steal your plasma tv?
That's what you're saying here.

Taking it down to the bare law is ridiculous.
This is the problem with the world at this moment, if there is no law, people see anything as ethically sound.
This is just retarded, a sense of descency is relevant in ANY case.

That view requires laws to provide for any possible situation, that is 1: impossible and 2: where all the freedom-restricting laws and bureaucracy comes from (and fail due to point 1).

 

[JKMV12]

do what you can to take advantage of the laws in place but like m0jo is saying they will only go so far. this is a respectable community we have here and what we need is an ethical code that outlines how we should treat someone's intellectual property. As i have said before...we cannot stop someone from copying someone else's work for personal use. Though what we can do is make a code of ethics that true members of this community will follow when we encounter a situation where someone else's intellectual property is being sold for profit. Like i said in the beginning it is a sensitive subject and we have to handle it with caution.

It is not the black and white areas we need to think about...it is the grey area. The black is a complete copy sold for profit...this should NEVER happen. The white is a original idea being sold...this is completely OK. The grey area are the ideas that are original but take elements from the pro modders. I don't believe we can just say you cannot take concepts from a pro modders work...they are forms of inspiration. As long as credit is given i see no problem. It just cannot be a complete copy.

 

[crankyrayhanky]

Ethics? Morality? Expect none of this on the world wide web...trademark is the best option

 

[Murderball]

I see what your saying mojo and kv.
To mojo(the tv thing): Yeah, if I leave the door open and you steal my tv, shame on me. Leave your car unlocked, you got robbed, etc. Its real life, crackheads dont care about ethics and morals. But I see where it bugs you because it bugs me too, but I can't fight it. Hippies have been trying for years lol.
To KV: I totally agree, this is a cool community and I think there needs to be a code, but at the same time there can be people who sign up with the other intentions untill someone else does the same thing and they, together, rip them off. Not all members will be true members unfortunately, but we can as said try to weed them out.

 

[JKMV12]

i know that thinking that everyone will act ethically is pointless b/c it will never happen. but being on this forum i see that there is a great deal of respect among members. making this "code" will not stop cut throat behavior...but it is a step in the right direction.

i started this thread b/c of the crap that went on in the thread Bigbrewtus started and the fact that alboz28 was wrongfully accused of copying a faceplate design. hyenik made an accusation and assumption that sparked a wildfire that went on for four pages. I can see an issue with the trademark names on the faceplates...that could have been rectified...but saying that the SLO module was stolen from Salvation or Gigmods is a ridiculous statement. They look similar...but that is all they are. There is no problem with them looking similar. Bigbrewtus emailed me a pic of alboz28's SLO and you can clearly tell which one is Salvation and which one is the work of a private individual. i am not dissing either design...what i am saying is that there is no justification for calling it stolen.

 

[Daryl]

I would like to add that I would never steal a trademark or use someone else's design. Nor would I reverse engineer a design with the intent to reproduce someone else's work. I think the amount of people that are at this level are very few. If this were not so, there would be way more modder wannabes out there trying to sell their knock-offs. I haven't encountered any of these folks. And to further clarify my position on copying a mod: Just because I have a right to do it doesn't mean that it is good to do. I just don't like it when people try to tell you what you can and can't do with your property. I hope I didn't come off to harsh in my last post. I apologize for the language. If I catch someone ripping off a mod, I'll let the modder in question know via PM immediately. The last thing we need are inferior mods floating around and giving MTS a bad name. :lol: :lol: :lol:
Just to reiterate again, I have no negative feelings whatsoever.
Love, Peace, and chicken grease... :wink:

 

[JKMV12]

I would like to add that I would never steal a trademark or use someone else's design. Nor would I reverse engineer a design with the intent to reproduce someone else's work. I think the amount of people that are at this level are very few. If this were not so, there would be way more modder wannabes out there trying to sell their knock-offs. I haven't encountered any of these folks. And to further clarify my position on copying a mod: Just because I have a right to do it doesn't mean that it is good to do. I just don't like it when people try to tell you what you can and can't do with your property. I hope I didn't come off to harsh in my last post. I apologize for the language. If I catch someone ripping off a mod, I'll let the modder in question know via PM immediately. The last thing we need are inferior mods floating around and giving MTS a bad name. :lol: :lol: :lol:
Just to reiterate again, I have no negative feelings whatsoever.
Love, Peace, and chicken grease... :wink:

hey Daryl. you weren't out of line with your previous post. it had to be said. no one has the right to tell us what we are aloud to do with our own personal property. It is my hope that we all have the decency to not copy or steal. It will happen and i am sure it already has. But if we have a chance to inhibit that kind of cut throat behavior...then i think we should take it.

now to comment on the part in bold...definitely say something if you suspect foul play...but don't turn it into a witch hunt. make sure you have firm ground to stand on if you make such accusations. and PM is a good way to start...we don't want to send someone to the gallows before they have been given the chance to defend their innocence. in alboz28's case he came in and denied that it was a copy and made a case for himself. Bigbrewtus defended him. I believe them and the only problem i saw was the use of trademark names. That is something we should include in this code. If a faceplate is intended to be sold then it cannot have trademark names on it. if it is for your own use then its fine but once it is put up for sale...it has to be fixed. But what fun is putting a trademark name on something? be creative and make your own name. I like Bigbrewtus's idea of changing the name to SKIDMARK. Anyway...the bottom line is not to turn it into a witch hunt. That is the last thing i want to see on this forum (next on that list would be another RIP...hoping that it never happens again). Keep a positive attitude guys...this discussion is going well imo. Peace...

Take Care,
John

 

[Daryl]

Agreed.

 

[crankyrayhanky]

too bad, I like a good witch hunt