Achieving Tone

[scratchbox0]

God I hope this isn't a real stupid question. Been playing for many, many years and I'm finally going to ask "how do you go about getting that tone?". My original plan was to always buy the equipment I thought would do it. Marshalls, Mesas, Vintage Fender..had 'em all. My biggest purchase was my step into MTS. It looked like the ticket to get a lot of different tones out of the same rig, so I purchased a RM4 and RT2/50. Three modules to start..KH1, Top Boost and SL+ off recommendations gleaned here.
I can sit in front of my amp and have a grand old time. The tone coming out seems real good. Sometimes it seems there isn't a bad setting except for extreme swings of the knobs. Then I take it to practice. Lifeless. Uninspiring. Lost in the mix. No sustain. So I do the old annoying guitar trick.. turn up the gain. Tweak like a madman and I get it to sound decent enough and not get thrown out. But back at home, what was passing in practice really sounds like crap. The hardest to dial in was the Top Boost. I essentially stopped using it.
So now I find myself doing the same old dance.."yeah, it must be because my modules aren't modded. Jaded Faith or Salvation..that's the ticket." Then it hit me that I am the problem. I have no systematic way to figure out tone. No idea how to dial in a module. I'm a tone tard. Brightness switch on, brightness switch off, not much difference. Couldn't say one setting is good, one setting is bad. Even on the RT2/50, I really don't hear much difference between the EL34's and the 6L6's. Maybe it's all those years standing onstage in front of the crash cymbal. Our other guitarist changed pedal cable lengths because he claimed tone loss, and I can barely detect the difference between tubes. I can feel
So maybe you have it or you don't, and I don't. I know a lot of it is just art, personal opinion. But maybe there is a starting point, a method that will put me on the road instead of just twisting knobs, getting frustrated and buying the next temporary fix. I'm confident the guys on this forum are serious about tone and pretty experienced, so I would appreciate anything that might help get me on track.

 

[Graham Pearson]

I understand the problem. You play at home in isolation - no rhythm guitar or bass or drums to muddy your sonic awareness. Then you play with a band and the sonic spectrum is full of noise and you don't cut through.

I play keyboards as well as guitar. My keyboards sounded crap until I realized my left hand was competing with the bass player. Now I only play keyboards with my right hand, leaving my left hand free to eat my shredded wheat. Also, my horn and string fills were lost until I played them an octave higher in a frequency range that was not already occupied by our rhythm guitar player.

Listen to some good guitar bands. Take ZZ Top for example. If you think their guitars sound good, try to isolate some of Billy's lead guitar tones from the rest of the band. Some of them would sound terrible if played alone.

My points?

1. You need a different set of tones for solo guitar than you do for playing guitar in a band.

2. When playing either lead or rhythm guitar in a band, try to find a place in the sonic spectrum that isn't already occupied.

3. Always eat your shredded wheat.

For the very reason of achieving different tones between home practice and gig playing, I'm about to experiment with a MIDI-controlled EQ system, similar to what our honorable tone guru MatFig uses.

Hope the above drivvel is somewhat useful.
Graham

 

[m0jo]

The difference between powertube types isn't enormous Once you tune in to it you will notice it though, it took me a while too to get my "eye" in on what exactly it did. It is more noticable on higher levels.
And the bright switch allows some high frequencies to bypass the gain pot, so it has extreme effect on lower gain and no effect with the gain maxed.

About tone:
When I was reading I figured you might be missing some mids, then you mentioned the top boost and I'm pretty sure. Vox tones don't have a lot of mids.
A more "scooped" tone sounds better on it's own, but in the mix it misses exactly those frequencies needed to stand out.

What speakers do you use?

If it's something like GT75's then maybe some V30's will bring it up to scratch in the mix!
Basically the lows is where the bass sits (also mids but ok), and highs are the crashes... conclusion: no mids = no guitar.

Also: Tweak the tone while playing, not during breaks.
Maybe this is a stupid tip but it should be said.

Oh and another idea: take a look at your volume distribution.
I run modules at around 10 - 11 o clock, master volume on the RM4 somewhere between 3 and max.
There is a definite change in tone when you run both halfway or the otherway around, again mostly in the mids (makes them very unpleasant to me).

What other gear do you run? Any effects units? (they might be overdriven by high input levels, causing crappy tone).

 

[Jaded Faith]

There are never stupid questions. Start off by believing in yourself. If you don't no one else will. We all have good and bad tone days (weeks, months, years...:lol, but the ideal thing is to have as few as possible.

Start with realistic expectations. Are there going to be differences in EL34's and 6L6's? Yes. But not night and day. Particularly not at low volumes where they aren't being pushed and their strengths/weaknesses are being highlighted. Is a modded module going to make you a better player? Not a chance. But it may inspire you to play at your personal best.

The best thing I ever did to achieve consistent tones was to tweak for the gig at hand. I have played out regularly since 1996. So for me, it makes sense to dial in tones for live use. They translate much better to quieter playing and recording than sounds crafted the other way around with minimal changes. Another advantage to that is this: Would I rather fiddle with knobs for playing alone at home or in the heat of rehearsal or on stage?

It was a glorious day when I stopped going insane over minute details like cable length and it's impact on my tone and just fell in love with making music with those I perform with. Those details are real, but they are such a small percentage of the whole and are often lost when the entire band is cranking away.

I have customers that range from those who dissect every detail in the privacy of their own music rooms to the point of insanity to the most carefree souls. So I totally get it that tone is a highly personal and subjective thing. At the end of the day it has to inspire you in the confines of where and why you play.

 

[djd100]

Besides all the good advice all ready given, don't forget that your ears hear very differently at different volumes, so whatever you dial in at a bedroom level will not sound good at a stage level (assuming an acoustic drummer etc).

With that in mind you're best off creating tones at around 85db (which is where your ears have the flattest response, though it's probably a bit loud for the typical bedroom).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fletcher–Munson_curves

 

[m0jo]

Besides all the good advice all ready given, don't forget that your ears hear very differently at different volumes, so whatever you dial in at a bedroom level will not sound good at a bstage level (assuming an acoustic drummer etc).

With that in mind you're best off creating tones at around 85db (which is where your ears have the flattest response, though it's probably a bit loud for the typical bedroom).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fletcher–Munson_curves

Good point.

In short, again at lower volumes you will want to hear more highs and bass
This is why the "loudness" button on stereo's is useless at .. wait no it's always awesome :lol:

 

[Shinozoku]

Basically what you've heard here. Try some more mids, run your power amp higher, and try the little thing that breathes new life into every MTS system: A NOS tube in the PI. Usually a 5751.

If you've got a lifeless tone and you're running all JJ preamp tubes, try running a different brand of tubes in your amp. Tung Sol and EHX are both amazing.

The amp rules basically, but if you find it lifeless yet still like the basic tones, nicer tubes will breathe new life into it.

 

[JeffHenneman]

My best piece of advice is too learn how all the knobs react to each other. I know it seems like just a basic thing but in reality it makes the most sense. Each amp reacts differently from each other and the randall is no defferent.

Is the loop on the rm4 footswitchable? Cause if it is the best bet for you is to put an eq in the loop, the beauty of that is that you can keep you amp at the same "volume" level as at practice and turn the out put to the eq down so when you practice at home you are not blowing your ear drums out and you can sculpt the sound with the eq.

Another suggestion is to use the density and presence knobs to adjust your live sound. I have done that in the past and have had pretty good results.

 

[Daryl]

I would say that turning up the mids is the first thing I would do. And turning the bass and density down to keep it from getting muddy. Then there's always throwing an OD pedal in front and slamming those frequencies through. I am no expert on tubes so I'll leave that to the other guys. A commonly overlooked element is the speakers that you are using. If you have a couple of different cabs, you might want to experiment around. Personally, I really like my Vintage 30's. They seem to get the right sounding mids for my tastes.

 

[crankyrayhanky]

Lifeless. Uninspiring. Lost in the mix. No sustain.

What kind of guitar are you playing? Great guitar= great tone

The hardest to dial in was the Top Boost. I essentially stopped using it.

Stock TopBoost is not even close to what it should be, sounds too much like the other hi gainers but not as good. IMO-Mod it or sell it

So now I find myself doing the same old dance.."yeah, it must be because my modules aren't modded. Jaded Faith or Salvation..that's the ticket."

Yes, that is the ticket--clearly better tones to be had. I'd rather have 1 modded module than 3 stock mods. Go from an amp that is just ok to one that gives great tones

Then it hit me that I am the problem. I have no systematic way to figure out tone. No idea how to dial in a module.

Start with your settings around noon (volumes a little less) Drastic tweaks from there are ill advised if you're struggling to find your sound- chances are you're overtweaking. Keep it fairly neutral and move a notch or 2 avbove and below and you should find the sweet spots

I'm a tone tard. Brightness switch on, brightness switch off, not much difference.

Bright switch is only audible on clean semi-dirty tones. Hi Gain makes the bright switch basically useless

 

[Mike P]

"how do you go about getting that tone?".

For the most part, you'll need to use the same exact gear that's been used by a guitarist on an album to replicate a guitar tone.

Trying to make M/B Rectifier sound like the James Gang isn't going to work. Trying to make an Orange Tiny Terror sound like a Mark IIC isn't going to work. Using a Vox to sound like Peter Frampton isn't going to work.

You have to start with the basics, which means player, guitar, strings, pickups, amp and speakers.

Break it down: Are you trying to emulate a guitarist that's using a Les Paul, Strat, Tele or hybrid (Strat body w/Floyd Rose & Humbucker)? What amp is that particular player using to achieve his tone? Is a pedal, such as an overdrive or chorus or wah-wah, an integral part of said tone?

It's going to be difficult to sound like Mike Campbell without using the same gear as Mike Campbell. Same goes for EVH, Gary Moore, Steve Howe and on and on an on.

Start in the beginning and work forward.

So maybe you have it or you don't, and I don't. I know a lot of it is just art, personal opinion.

Only you know for sure. That's not a question anyone can answer but you. It most definitely is an art but it's also extremely dependent on YOU - your ears, your fingers and how you hear. In the recording world, guys can spend years learning the trade before their ears "Pop" and light bulb goes on. For others, it's easy from the get go. And some never get it.

As a side note, I think the stock Randall modules are completely unusable and in most cases, downright hideously awful.

Good luck!

 

[alowerdeep]

I would say it all starts with what sounds good to your ear relative to the situation you are playing in..i.e at home,with the band at rehersal,a gig........it is obvious by your comment you can get great tones at home,the probelm is in a "live" situation...and I think we have all been there....just comes with patience and follwing your ears,a little homework,so to speak.....while some people have a better ear for it than others...most guys can achieve a likable tone by trusting their own ear...and it doesnt come much easier than with the MTS stuff for sure.....MikeP is right on...start with what is relative to players you like and their gear.....I would recommend listening to some of your favorite recordings as well.LIve and studio....listen to the guitar tone relative to the bass and the drums......you may not need to dial in all of that bass with the band,becasue for obvious reasons,your bass player and drummer are going to cover the bottom end for example....a good bass players tone can also have an effect on your live tone,well,what you perceive as your live tone when you hear it all together....just takes some trial and error and finding what you like really and what fits your situation.....sounds like you are on the right track if you can get it sounding killer at home....you just have to take other factors besides yourself into account like the bass tone,relativity in the mix,the room size and acoustics..just have fun with it and think of it as a challenge,but not to the point that is frustrates you.....These modules are like a collection of boutique amps at your disposal if you take the time and patience with them.I have owned some high dollar amps and these modules sounds as good or better.......hope you get what you want out of them...but I will add,yuo cannot go wrong with any of the Salvation modules.....JF,Sacred Groove and Gigmod make some really cool stuff as well.....and they are all very easy to work with to help you find whatever tone you are wanting....

 

[Hamner1]

Tones a bich for sure. Like the others have said, room, other band members tone/frequencies they are covering, your gear, not to mention what you percieve as good tone. I can on one day be in tone heaven, the next without anychanges to the knobs/rig it just isn't right. fiddle with the knobs eventually it will be right.

1st what tones are you after; Lynch, Sykes, EVH, Rhoads, Brian May, etc, etc. This will get you on the road to the modules you should get.

2nd try some different stock modules. The Plexi is a different beast than the Brahma & GTO. But if you only tried the Plexi and thought not really what you want, so you avoid the other 2 similar modules, you are missing out.

3rd if you have some stock modules that get you close but not quite, try different &/or new tubes. If still not what you want then send them off for mods.

4th as stated above if you have different cabs or different speakers you can swap in/out, try that. Maybe the GT75s kill for home without the other band members, but suck in the live scenario. So maybe those Greenbacks or Vintage 30s, etc accentuate the right frequencies so it sounds good in the mix/band.

5th keep in mind in a live situation most people are not going to know the difference in tone. If you bust out a Tom Petty song using a Marshall the audience isn't going to know or care. Mainly because they are not as anal about tone as we are. Also they are there to hear some good songs and are not comparing it to the album.

 

[scratchbox0]

Wow, great response and great advice all the way around. Guess I never put a lot of thought into the frequencies being used by the other players. Makes a whole lot of sense. I have a cabinet that I custom made (I'm a cabinetmaker by trade). London Power..or something like that design. It is a deep cabinet, one 12" V30 and a 12 port on the bottom. It has a great full sound to my ears. The sound guy was complaining about my tone when I switched to MTS, and one night he threw a POS two twelve cabinet on my rig. It was probably 1/2 material, the speakers where V30's which is the same that I use, and I had to tape the speaker cable to it because every time I would strum the cord would shoot out of the jack. " Much better sound" I was told at the end of the night. WTF is what I thought. So, with my cabinet, all the glistening highs and the subtle lows were eaten up live and what was left was thin and lifeless. Now it makes sense!
I have to reread everything here. I was looking for big sonic differences with bright switchs (huge difference on my old Bassman, I guess I expected the same) and tubes. Maybe I'm not tone deaf.
I really appreciate the guidance. Unfortunately I tablesawed off the top of my fretting index finger, so I won't be playing out anytime soon. I'll have to see how much the stuff they sewed back on survives, then PT. So now is good time to play with all this and keep my other three fingers active and not get depressed over my carelessness.

Guitars..Epi Les Paul, Fernandez Strat and a mongrel I made using an Epi neck and a mohogany body, and Ibanez RGsomething.
Speaker Cabinet.explained above. I also have a Weber Silver Bell speaker that I tried for a bit..
Effects..I have a GForce midi'd in my rig for most effects
Pedals..on the KH1 I use a Fulltone OcD, a Fulltone red FullDrive 2.
I also use a Voodoo Lab Midi switcher and loop setup to select pedals and different effect patches.

 

[Steven Latch]

Take ZZ Top for example. If you think their guitars sound good, try to isolate some of Billy's lead guitar tones from the rest of the band. Some of them would sound terrible if played alone.

Another good example would be slash. There is a lot of debate online regarding Marshall's AFD amp. The amp has a mode that emulates slash's JCM800 tone for the UYI albums and onwards. On it's own... it's harsh, full of treble, thin. But if you listen to the albums and focus on the guitar, it's actually quite close and fits well with the other instruments.

 

[Graham Pearson]

(I'm a cabinetmaker by trade).

Unfortunately I tablesawed off the top of my fretting index finger, so I won't be playing out anytime soon. I'll have to see how much the stuff they sewed back on survives, then PT.

Lots of sympathy from a fellow picker who has been close to shaving off a finger or two. Perhaps consider a different occupation?

Hope your rehabilitation is speedy and 100% effective.
Graham

 

[Mike P]

I have a cabinet that I custom made

With all due respect, I'd replace that cabinet with a Marshall 1960 loaded with Scumback M75 speakers. They're the closest thing made to original Pre-Rolla Celestions and sound nothing short of amazing. A Marshall 4x12 with Scumbacks should provide a lifetime of tone.

Secondly, I would not advise running any Fender amp of any vintage through a closed back 4x12 cabinet. If you're running a Fender head, say a Dual Showman, Black or Silver Faced Bassman, etc., you should have a very good open back 2x12 cabinet with Jensen or similar speakers (The Celestion Blue speakers are absolutely phenomenal with early Fenders and similar amps, although they're upwards of $300 per speaker).

I'd also suggest the shortest cable length possible. I use either Mogami or Canare speaker cable and build the cables myself (there's no reason to pay an additional $20 or so per cable to for someone else to build them, unless you're a novice when it comes to soldering).

Guitars..Epi Les Paul, Fernandez Strat and a mongrel I made using an Epi neck and a mohogany body, and Ibanez RGsomething.
Speaker Cabinet.explained above. I also have a Weber Silver Bell speaker that I tried for a bit..
Effects..I have a GForce midi'd in my rig for most effects
Pedals..on the KH1 I use a Fulltone OcD, a Fulltone red FullDrive 2.
I also use a Voodoo Lab Midi switcher and loop setup to select pedals and different effect patches.

As I stated previously, start from the beginning. Personally, I'd advise against using ANY effects or distortion pedals. If you're having difficulty achieve tone, start with the instrument, the amp and the cabinet.

Now that I'm aware of the instruments you own, I'd advise to start with a single guitar and work to improve its tone.

For example, which Epi Les Paul do you own, glued in neck or bolt on? What year was it made? Is it mahogany with a maple top or just mahogany? For starters, I'd have a bone nut cut for the guitar and would immediately order a Tone Pros Tune-A-Matic and Stop tailpiece. Depending on the wood, I'd advise trying Gibson Classic 57's, Burstbucker Pro's or Seymour Duncan Antiquity pickups (there are other "Boutique" humbuckers available as well).

I'd also check the wiring on the Les Paul, along with the pots. Is it hand wired or Molex connector (hand wired is the way to go). 500k pots or 300k? Is it wired in "Vintage" wiring, modern or molex? I'd advise "Vintage" wiring (diagrams can be found all over the internet), 500k CTS pots, quality wiring and switch. These can all go a LONG way in achieving better tone.

Once your cabinet and guitar are in excellent shape, turn your attention to the amp and/or MTS modules. After you've determined what you require in terms of sounds, modules and modifications and you've become happy and comfortable with your guitar, amp and cabinet, turn your attention towards upgrading your Strat (again, bridge, nut, pickups) and then your Ibanez (pickups, a better locking bridge, etc).

As you become increasingly satisfied with the tone of your amp, cabinet and guitars, it will make it much easier to determine whether or not you require distortion pedals, effects units, switching, etc.

Until you have the basics in place, distortion pedals and effects will not improve your tone and most likely be a hindrance because you won't know where the issue (or multiple issues in this case) lie.

Again, good luck!

 

[Shinozoku]

Hey Mike, would you happen to have tried the higher wattage M75's in comparison to the regular 25 watters?

 

[Mike P]

Hey Mike, would you happen to have tried the higher wattage M75's in comparison to the regular 25 watters?

Yes. I actually prefer the 65 watters because I like a little headroom but it's hard to "go wrong" with either. I also prefer the bigger dustcap even though he doesn't believe it makes much difference.

 

[Shinozoku]

Hey Mike, would you happen to have tried the higher wattage M75's in comparison to the regular 25 watters?

Yes. I actually prefer the 65 watters because I like a little headroom but it's hard to "go wrong" with either. I also prefer the bigger dustcap even though he doesn't believe it makes much difference.

Awesome Aside from the headroom, are there any noticeable tonal differences? Or does it basically just sound like a killer pre-rola Greenback with more headroom? I was wanting to make a 2x12 for my Randall with dimensions based off of a Framus Cobra cabinet, and didn't want to worry about the added smoothness of the Eminence versions, etc. Also don't wanna blow up my speakers So I've been searching for a higher wattage Greenback replacement that will get me the same tone so I don't have to lug around a 4x12.