Its been a long journey with MTS...

[Whoopysnorp]

I deal with high end production libraries that will not allow MIDI brass sections and other similar instrumentation and would never allow fake, digital guitars.

Not that I'm trying to get your goat or stir up trouble or anything, but all the MTS clips I've heard you post here have pretty obviously sequenced MIDI drum tracks on them. Not trying to say that the guitars don't sound great, but the drums are clearly not real. Are these clips not representative of the kind of caliber you're talking about here?

 

[Mike P]

I deal with high end production libraries that will not allow MIDI brass sections and other similar instrumentation and would never allow fake, digital guitars.

Not that I'm trying to get your goat or stir up trouble or anything, but all the MTS clips I've heard you post here have pretty obviously sequenced MIDI drum tracks on them. Not trying to say that the guitars don't sound great, but the drums are clearly not real. Are these clips not representative of the kind of caliber you're talking about here?

Real? What do you mean by "real"? What's your implication? And can you please provide songs produced today where the drums aren't supplemented with samples? Thanks.

Also, can you please provide examples of songs with "real" drums in which Beat Detective hasn't been used? Thanks again!

 

[Kapo_Polenton]

In the interest of pushing this argument to 10 pages.. MikeP he might have you there somewhat on the midi drum samples!! However where drums and guitar differ is that the drums sampled from drum libraries are the equivalent to real sampled tube amps, not digital algorithms and chips which mimic the sound of tubes. I think you'd be surprised that drums are recorded live a lot more than you think MikeP but I think you are right in that more often than not, drum samples or drum replacement are combined with live drums to create the finished product. If you have the space, nothing beats a real kit. It is a pain in the *** to program the nuances of drumming through midi. I know because I used to do that and I am a drummer as well. Drum replacement is the best of both worlds in my opinion. I look forward to trying it out with a mic'ed kit.

 

[rhequiem]

This discussion just got even more interesting

 

[Mike P]

In the interest of pushing this argument to 10 pages.. MikeP he might have you there somewhat on the midi drum samples!! However where drums and guitar differ is that the drums sampled from drum libraries are the equivalent to real sampled tube amps, not digital algorithms and chips which mimic the sound of tubes. I think you'd be surprised that drums are recorded live a lot more than you think MikeP but I think you are right in that more often than not, drum samples or drum replacement are combined with live drums to create the finished product. If you have the space, nothing beats a real kit. It is a pain in the *** to program the nuances of drumming through midi. I know because I used to do that and I am a drummer as well. Drum replacement is the best of both worlds in my opinion. I look forward to trying it out with a mic'ed kit.

To be honest, I don't have much time or patience to discuss this topic. But what I will say is that nearly every single major label release in the past 20+ years have had drum sample replacements and augmentation. I don't care if you're talking Metallica or STP or Soundgarden or Nickelback, etc. When it comes to mixing records with huge guitars, it's very rare that the mixer (especially if his name rhymes with Miss Ford Algea, THE hottest mixer in the business) doesn't use sample to augment the mixes, let alone replace drums altogether.

As far as my work goes, I use a combination of sample libraries, drums I've personally sampled and have created loops of drummers I've recorded. I've NEVER used pre-programmed loops and always either play the drums in via or keyboard or my Pintech kit or with the pencil tool in Nuendo. And furthermore, I've had big time producers ask me what mics I've used on these very sample libraries because these days, it's rare that anyone can the difference.

If you or Whoopysnorp else think it's "obvious", you're the only two people that have even noticed in years, including all of my publishers, producers and even the president of Taxi who literally flipped out over my drum sounds. As a matter of fact, outside of this forum, the first thing that everyone mentions when they hear my rock tracks are the drums, not the guitars.

I guess there's a first time for everything.

 

[BigBrewtus]

Isnt everything fake in Hollywood? :wink:
I kid, I kid.............And my name is Josh E.
This is just getting silly. How many pages can this really go on?
:roll:

 

[rhequiem]

Very interesting indeed!

 

[Mike P]

It is a pain in the *** to program the nuances of drumming through midi. I know because I used to do that and I am a drummer as well.

I don't think it's difficult and a MIDI kit and a great drummer can solve that issue easily. That said, the 30 second tracks I've posted don't need "nuances" because they've all been straight ahead, slammin' tracks.

I look forward to trying it out with a mic'ed kit.

Unless you're planning to spend at least $30k on mic preamps, microphones and compressors (not to mention the room), your tracks won't even be in the same league as high end sample libraries like Toontrack and Steven Slate.

And don't forget that your favorite band's two biggest records (5150 and 1984) were Simmons drums.

The main reason why I don't use a live drummer on my production library tracks? Time.

I can crank out two to three rock tracks a day, if necessary. I couldn't do that with a drummer. Plus, revisions are often necessary and getting a drummer to come back and re-cut a track 45 minutes from the time I receive an email or phone call would be impossible.

If I'm hired for a high profile, high paying gig, I'll use a Ryan Hoyle, who's a great drummer with a great sounding room. But 99% of the time, it's sample libraries, for the reason listed above.

 

[rhequiem]

I guess everyone makes compromises

 

[Mike P]

I guess everyone makes compromises

Yeah, you're right. I'm the ONLY film and TV composer that uses sample libraries.

:roll:

 

[rhequiem]

Didn't say you were, did i? :roll:

But you had a pretty big stance against something that would cause you to compromise previously. Mind you, I didn't take the stance, as I couldn't care less, as long as people are digging what they are doing - so I just think it's interesting how some compromises are okay, and others not-so-much? That's why I try to avoid black and white thinking - it's just generally flawed and rigid.

 

[rblyn]

Isnt everything fake in Hollywood? :wink:
I kid, I kid.............And my name is Josh E.
This is just getting silly. How many pages can this really go on?
:roll:

A 9 page pissing contest....yawn......

 

[Mike P]

Didn't say you were, did i? :roll:

Give me a break.

But you had a pretty big stance against something that would cause you to compromise previously. Mind you, I didn't take the stance, as I couldn't care less, as long as people are digging what they are doing - so I just think it's interesting how some compromises are okay, and others not-so-much? That's why I try to avoid black and white thinking - it's just generally flawed and rigid.

It's not a "compromise" to use sample libraries: It's fact of the business. 90% or more of everything you hear in film and TV is a sample library. Budgets for big time studios and union musicians only exist for a very, very small segment of the business.

As a matter of fact, most of the composers that I know (including myself) wouldn't be working today without sample libraries like Toontrack, EWQL Platinum Plus orchestra, LASS, Omnisphere, Komplete 8, etc. and so on. These are the tools of the trade.

One of my orchestral tracks was used numerous times last year in a variety of programs. Is it "compromise" that I didn't use the London Philharmonic?

 

[Mike P]

Isnt everything fake in Hollywood? :wink:
I kid, I kid.............And my name is Josh E.
This is just getting silly. How many pages can this really go on?
:roll:

A 9 page pissing contest....yawn......

It's interesting to me how people's perceptions vary. I haven't seen this thread as a "pissing" contest, whatsoever. I think it's mostly been level-headed people discussing a very touchy subject.

 

[rhequiem]

Mike and I are in agreement on this one! I knew this day would come!! :lol:

Isnt everything fake in Hollywood? :wink:
I kid, I kid.............And my name is Josh E.
This is just getting silly. How many pages can this really go on?
:roll:

A 9 page pissing contest....yawn......

It's interesting to me how people's perceptions vary. I haven't seen this thread as a "pissing" contest, whatsoever. I think it's mostly been level-headed people discussing a very touchy subject.

 

[Kapo_Polenton]

And don't forget that your favorite band's two biggest records (5150 and 1984) were Simmons drums. Very Happy

The main reason why I don't use a live drummer on my production library tracks? Time.

I can crank out two to three rock tracks a day, if necessary. I couldn't do that with a drummer. Plus, revisions are often necessary and getting a drummer to come back and re-cut a track 45 minutes from the time I receive an email or phone call would be impossible.

That's fair.. I think I like the idea of playing myself is all. Yes there will be mistakes, yes I will likely loop my own passages (because of time issues, f-ck ups etc) but i do think you can get very usable tracks by mic'ing up trash cans and using the replacement samples much in the same way as those Simmons drums were used. The only problem is the cymbals.. that though, is where samples come back to play. Remember, I'm an 80's guy so I don't have to go that far to get the quality I am looking for.. 8)

 

[Kapo_Polenton]

Also, one thing I have to be honest about, with any sampled drums, is the sound of the hi hats and ride. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3c0Ah65oi4 For example .. first off it is a killer album but listen to the hats and especially the ride, you can hear that the vibration from the ride or the wash stays present and doesn't come on and off like a sample does. That said i know these drums are heavily edited as well and pieced together but the hats and ride are more natural than a midi hit. I think you will agree with that and might have in a way suggesting that if you could use a session drummer every time and actually had the time, then you would..

 

[Whoopysnorp]

Whoa, nelly...ok, I wasn't trying to cast aspersions, I just wanted to determine whether the drums in Mike's work constituted an exception to the usual rule that forbids MIDI instrumentation. I completely understand why it does. I have a friend who is an L.A.-based composer that hires me to record guitar for him sometimes (though for projects that are mostly of a lower-profile than what Mike is talking about), and his material also basically always has programmed drums on it, because as you say, it is usually prohibitive to do otherwise. It is a compromise, but because people are generally used to hearing sample-augmented drum tracks, or ones entirely composed of samples, they accept the way it sounds.

I can't comment on major-label material that does not use these kinds of techniques on the drums, because 99% of that stuff makes me retch, so I don't listen to it. The music I listen to does usually tend to have real drums on it, which is a sound I prefer. Frankly, if I have to choose between modeled guitar tones and sampled drums, I will choose the modeled guitar tones. Naturally, I'll take bona fide drums AND guitars if I can get them.

 

[Mike P]

Also, one thing I have to be honest about, with any sampled drums, is the sound of the hi hats and ride. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3c0Ah65oi4 For example .. first off it is a killer album but listen to the hats and especially the ride, you can hear that the vibration from the ride or the wash stays present and doesn't come on and off like a sample does. That said i know these drums are heavily edited as well and pieced together but the hats and ride are more natural than a midi hit. I think you will agree with that and might have in a way suggesting that if you could use a session drummer every time and actually had the time, then you would..

The trend this past decade has been to record the drums only - no cymbals. It makes it easier to get separation and sound replace. After those are cut, the cymbals are then recorded. On Metallica's Black album, there were so many edits that the cymbals were cut off and had to be re-recorded.

But all of that aside, I'd only use a session drummer on a high profile gig. Sample libraries can be made to sound excellent and for 30 second to 1:30 second clips, it would not only be time consuming but highly cost prohibitive to bring in session drummer for every rock track. I composed and produced around 90 rock tracks last year. If I had used a drummer on each track, the cost would have been in excess of $12,000 dollars.

And there's much more than just miking up a kit. The choice of kick, snare, toms and cymbals, along with mic preamps, mic and mic placements are integral to the production. I often change the tunings, choice of drums, cymbals, etc. from track to track and it would be ridiculously time consuming to do that after the fact. When I get specific calls for music, the turnaround time can be as short as an hour, which just wouldn't work without a serious studio and drummer.

I've never had a single client ever make any comments about the drums other than they sound great, so that's an expense that is unnecessary and really doesn't work for me. If I was composing for a network show, *maybe* but even then, it would be tough to pull off, considering the deadlines and changes that are made last minute.

 

[Mike P]

Whoa, nelly...ok, I wasn't trying to cast aspersions, I just wanted to determine whether the drums in Mike's work constituted an exception to the usual rule that forbids MIDI instrumentation. I completely understand why it does. I have a friend who is an L.A.-based composer that hires me to record guitar for him sometimes (though for projects that are mostly of a lower-profile than what Mike is talking about), and his material also basically always has programmed drums on it, because as you say, it is usually prohibitive to do otherwise. It is a compromise, but because people are generally used to hearing sample-augmented drum tracks, or ones entirely composed of samples, they accept the way it sounds.

Here's the deal: It's much easier (and more cost effective) to create brass parts in Nuendo and bring in a few players, throw up an AEA R84 or even a couple of 421's and have a sax and trumpet player read the sheet music, than to book a room, hire a drummer and produce drum tracks.

I know there are a few "purists" out that there that believe that anything other than a drummer is "fake" but since drum machines and samples have been in the world's collective consciousness for more than 30 years, as long as the production and composition are extremely high quality, it's not an issue.

All that said, there isn't a Brass library out there that is the sound and sample equivalent of the Steven Slate or Toontrack drum libraries. Even Garritan Jazz and Big Band, which I own and use occasionally, is very difficult to realistically produce convincing parts. I usually have to "hide" them under Hammond Organ tracks or something similar.