Mic Placement and the "shavering" method.

Rigs, Clips & Tones OH MY

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m0jo
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Post by m0jo » Tue Dec 21, 2010 11:08 am

MadHatter_Lurch wrote:
m0jo wrote:
MadHatter_Lurch wrote:wow this is just some amazing info right here. so tell me, are IRs just a program on the computer or are they like a box that usb or controller in to your computer? You see a while back, I was doing some recording for a band and the singer(friend of mine) plugged in a handheld recorder from one side of the room into my computer's line in (power from the other side of the room) without asking me. My onboard sound card(amazing quality oddly) is now fried for recording purposes. So would the IR work for this computer, or would I jsut have to use it on the Laptop(the only way I can currently record) and if not.... Hey anyone know a good yet affordable audio interface for a computer? Thanks!

Peace!
~Fried Hate
"Impulse response" the name says it, this is how the room and poweramp/mic etc. reacts to the signal, the response to the impulse.
The impulse response itself only holds that information. (it's a wav file of a few kb)

So what you need is a plugin (in Reaper, Cubase or whatever) that can load impulses and affect the sound with how the impulse dictates it should.
When send a preamp signal through that plugin it basically acts as a poweramp+cab+mic simulator.

So yeah it basically is software.
But there are some hardware boxes that can load impulses.
Like the Line 6 stuff, Fractal Axe-FX, Digitech GSP (beta firmware).
That way you can run to the PA board with impulses as cab sim :) (or just practice through headphones)
Thank you awesome answer! :-D so I still need an interfeace. Whinozoku just turned me on to This I will save up for it, because the only way I have to get the sound to my computer is to go 1/4" to1/8" cable to my mic/linein. This thread has been amazing and insightful! I know it isn't my thread but thank you everyone for the info!!!

Peace!
Hat by any other name is still Mad
Cheers, no problem, if you have any questions just ask!
We're here to help :)

BTW, do check out some other interface they have ;)
If you're using your Randall as a preamp then PodFarm might be overkill..
On the other hand, it's always fun to play with ;)

Salvation Mods Twinface, Mash-all+, Sloogie, Mu?eca, Shiver (Facelift), modded XTC, stock Recto
Randall RM4 - Randall RT2/50 - Randall RM22
TT-Cabs REX V212


www.sparkplugmusic.nl

Shinozoku
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Post by Shinozoku » Tue Dec 21, 2010 2:06 pm

After I showed him that, I showed him this and tried to stress how much more versatile it would be ;)
RM100M w/ Tung Sol 5881's
Blackface(self modded), Ultra Lead, SL+(out of commission), Ultra XL (self modded)
Vader 2x12 Cab
Edwards E-AL-128 with a Seymour Duncan JB

MadHatter_Lurch
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Post by MadHatter_Lurch » Tue Dec 21, 2010 2:42 pm

Shinozoku wrote:After I showed him that, I showed him this and tried to stress how much more versatile it would be ;)
Yeah I think I posted that before you showed me. My main concerns with these interfaces are compatibility with software. I am going to look into Reaper when I start recording again... thoughts on it? also, what other interfaces are you all using?

Peace!
Hat goes to let dog out.
I guess a rig goes here....

RM100 - 6550s (just awesome)
MadClean module (will one day become V-10)
A.F.K.A.T. (work in progress... love it!)

Dean Mach 5

My Rig Topic

m0jo
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Post by m0jo » Tue Dec 21, 2010 2:50 pm

MadHatter_Lurch wrote:
Shinozoku wrote:After I showed him that, I showed him this and tried to stress how much more versatile it would be ;)
Yeah I think I posted that before you showed me. My main concerns with these interfaces are compatibility with software. I am going to look into Reaper when I start recording again... thoughts on it? also, what other interfaces are you all using?

Peace!
Hat goes to let dog out.
I use Reaper, personally I think it delivers on all fronts, but mostly on user friendlyness.
No fighting with it, it just works :)
Plus it comes with a buttload of plugins, including an IR reverb (ReaVerb).

Oh good point:
The plugins you load the IR's into are "Reverb" plugins, because this technique was developed to capture a rooms reverb accurately.

Salvation Mods Twinface, Mash-all+, Sloogie, Mu?eca, Shiver (Facelift), modded XTC, stock Recto
Randall RM4 - Randall RT2/50 - Randall RM22
TT-Cabs REX V212


www.sparkplugmusic.nl

MadHatter_Lurch
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Post by MadHatter_Lurch » Tue Dec 21, 2010 2:56 pm

What kind of interface do you use? between the amp and the computer? I need to get one before I can record again. Thanks!

Peace!
Needs Mad to Hat interface
I guess a rig goes here....

RM100 - 6550s (just awesome)
MadClean module (will one day become V-10)
A.F.K.A.T. (work in progress... love it!)

Dean Mach 5

My Rig Topic

m0jo
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Post by m0jo » Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:02 pm

MadHatter_Lurch wrote:What kind of interface do you use? between the amp and the computer? I need to get one before I can record again. Thanks!

Peace!
Needs Mad to Hat interface
I use a Lexicon Alpha, which I don't necessarily recommend (cumbersome drivers, not beautiful casing, no exceptional audio quality)
Or my Digitech GSP1101 (which is not really an option for you think, it just happens to be a function on that fx processor)

btw Daryl, sorry for facilitating a gigantic threadjack here ;)
You are welcome to piss all over one of my threads :lol:

Salvation Mods Twinface, Mash-all+, Sloogie, Mu?eca, Shiver (Facelift), modded XTC, stock Recto
Randall RM4 - Randall RT2/50 - Randall RM22
TT-Cabs REX V212


www.sparkplugmusic.nl

Daryl
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Post by Daryl » Tue Dec 21, 2010 4:18 pm

m0jo wrote:
MadHatter_Lurch wrote:What kind of interface do you use? between the amp and the computer? I need to get one before I can record again. Thanks!

Peace!
Needs Mad to Hat interface
I use a Lexicon Alpha, which I don't necessarily recommend (cumbersome drivers, not beautiful casing, no exceptional audio quality)
Or my Digitech GSP1101 (which is not really an option for you think, it just happens to be a function on that fx processor)

btw Daryl, sorry for facilitating a gigantic threadjack here ;)
You are welcome to piss all over one of my threads :lol:
I think that it is kind of funny and a sign of the times. This thread started out as a post of the "shavering method", a conventional style recording method. Now it is about IRs and computer based interfaces. I would hope that all of you guys integrate the two styles into your approach to recording. You never know what will sound good and it's best to know how to do the whole mic on the cab thing when all else fails. Plus it's good for when you are playing a show.
Don't worry about the threadjack, Mojo. You were trying to give some advice about stuff you know to a fellow forum member. No harm in that. In fact, that is the whole idea behind this forum thing anyway. Share ideas, help with issues, point out cool gear, and give each other support in general. Don't ever be afraid to share what you got. More knowledge makes us all stronger. Peace.
:D :D :D
?The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination.?-Albert Einstein

m0jo
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Post by m0jo » Tue Dec 21, 2010 4:25 pm

Daryl wrote:
m0jo wrote:
MadHatter_Lurch wrote:What kind of interface do you use? between the amp and the computer? I need to get one before I can record again. Thanks!

Peace!
Needs Mad to Hat interface
I use a Lexicon Alpha, which I don't necessarily recommend (cumbersome drivers, not beautiful casing, no exceptional audio quality)
Or my Digitech GSP1101 (which is not really an option for you think, it just happens to be a function on that fx processor)

btw Daryl, sorry for facilitating a gigantic threadjack here ;)
You are welcome to piss all over one of my threads :lol:
I think that it is kind of funny and a sign of the times. This thread started out as a post of the "shavering method", a conventional style recording method. Now it is about IRs and computer based interfaces. I would hope that all of you guys integrate the two styles into your approach to recording. You never know what will sound good and it's best to know how to do the whole mic on the cab thing when all else fails. Plus it's good for when you are playing a show.
Don't worry about the threadjack, Mojo. You were trying to give some advice about stuff you know to a fellow forum member. No harm in that. In fact, that is the whole idea behind this forum thing anyway. Share ideas, help with issues, point out cool gear, and give each other support in general. Don't ever be afraid to share what you got. More knowledge makes us all stronger. Peace.
:D :D :D
Yep :D

That is funny haha

Well like I stated before, IRs are only an EQ and reverb simulator.
We were in the studio with the band this weekend, and I had my cab miced up properly in a good dampened room, meaning I could ramp up the poweramp.
You definitly hear that in the sound, like the difference between digital modeling and a real amp .. it's more alive ;) (not as big a difference, but in the same area)

Next time we're in I'm definitly going to record 3 tracks:
- direct (for reamping, we did that with the rythm guitarist, it's very nice to just sit down and listen, not having to play while you tweak the sound)
- after preamp (for IR use, can be very usefull for adding in effects and getting a tighter track_
- miced up (for the main recorded sound, hopefully not requiring any reamping)

All of these possibilities.. it would almost distract from the music ;)
I love crafting the best tone I've ever heard!

Salvation Mods Twinface, Mash-all+, Sloogie, Mu?eca, Shiver (Facelift), modded XTC, stock Recto
Randall RM4 - Randall RT2/50 - Randall RM22
TT-Cabs REX V212


www.sparkplugmusic.nl

GtrGeorge!
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IR s dissapointed me so far

Post by GtrGeorge! » Sat Jan 01, 2011 11:25 pm

Id welcome any comments on this..
So far Ive used IR on a Reverb program, with the settings on all wet..and Ive got all these "cabinet Irs...4x12 1x12 etc etc and ya know what? Sounds weird. To me. Maybe I never spent enough time actually miccing up these actual cabs but to my ears it all sounds small and impotent.
I currently use an ada cab simulator..its a rack piece of gear and it does a decent job..and its quick..and that accounts for something,imho.
But i long for an ada ampulator..which was another rack piece of gear that supposedly really does a great job, but is no longer made..and goes for big bux. Somebody on this forum has one and I am..naturally envious..being a gear nut and all.
GtrGeorge
....you concur?????

m0jo
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Re: IR s dissapointed me so far

Post by m0jo » Sun Jan 02, 2011 6:45 pm

GtrGeorge! wrote:Id welcome any comments on this..
So far Ive used IR on a Reverb program, with the settings on all wet..and Ive got all these "cabinet Irs...4x12 1x12 etc etc and ya know what? Sounds weird. To me. Maybe I never spent enough time actually miccing up these actual cabs but to my ears it all sounds small and impotent.
I currently use an ada cab simulator..its a rack piece of gear and it does a decent job..and its quick..and that accounts for something,imho.
But i long for an ada ampulator..which was another rack piece of gear that supposedly really does a great job, but is no longer made..and goes for big bux. Somebody on this forum has one and I am..naturally envious..being a gear nut and all.
GtrGeorge
....you concur?????
Hmm, what IRs are you using?

There's a huge difference between the producers of different IR's because of their setups (mic placement, gear settings, mic preamp, interface etc.)
Have you tried GuitarHack's IRs?

If not let me know and I'll shoot you a download link for 'em.
If you have them, try out the Sneap styles, they are my favorite!

Salvation Mods Twinface, Mash-all+, Sloogie, Mu?eca, Shiver (Facelift), modded XTC, stock Recto
Randall RM4 - Randall RT2/50 - Randall RM22
TT-Cabs REX V212


www.sparkplugmusic.nl

Shinozoku
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Re: IR s dissapointed me so far

Post by Shinozoku » Tue Jan 04, 2011 7:16 am

m0jo wrote:If not let me know and I'll shoot you a download link for 'em.
If you have them, try out the Sneap styles, they are my favorite!
Are those the ones that make everything you play sound like it's running through a 5150? :lol:
RM100M w/ Tung Sol 5881's
Blackface(self modded), Ultra Lead, SL+(out of commission), Ultra XL (self modded)
Vader 2x12 Cab
Edwards E-AL-128 with a Seymour Duncan JB

m0jo
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Re: IR s dissapointed me so far

Post by m0jo » Tue Jan 04, 2011 7:19 am

Shinozoku wrote:
m0jo wrote:If not let me know and I'll shoot you a download link for 'em.
If you have them, try out the Sneap styles, they are my favorite!
Are those the ones that make everything you play sound like it's running through a 5150? :lol:
Haha, almost ;)

Salvation Mods Twinface, Mash-all+, Sloogie, Mu?eca, Shiver (Facelift), modded XTC, stock Recto
Randall RM4 - Randall RT2/50 - Randall RM22
TT-Cabs REX V212


www.sparkplugmusic.nl

Daryl
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Post by Daryl » Tue Jan 04, 2011 8:03 pm

As far as IR's go. I think they are cool. I still think that it is really important to know the old school methods for getting a great tone with a mic off of your cabs. Especially in a live situation, it is important to get the best mic'd tone you can and quick. So I say use the IR's but don't forget to use your mic's. You may find a really good tone with a 5 minute mic setup that rivals an hour of messing around with IR's to find the "right" one. If you know what tone you like and got nice cabs why not just mic them up and rip? This "shavering" method really makes the setup easy and 5 minutes or less if you got your amp set up already. Not to mention the hours of research and testing of different IR programs to find the best ones.
So don't forget the mic and cab methods of recording and don't be afraid to try the IR's either. You never know what will do it for you tone-wise. Every ear is entirely different paradigm. :D
?The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination.?-Albert Einstein

bduersch
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Post by bduersch » Tue Jan 04, 2011 9:40 pm

Totally agree... I'd go so far as to suggest that understanding the dynamics of mic + speaker interaction GREATLY HELPS when using IR's... to be able to understand the freq. response curves of both different mics and different speakers, to understand the impact of proximity effect + on/off-axis placement, to understand positioning against cone vs. cap... all of them greatly help when picking the right IR for the job.

And for that (back to the OP) the shavering method is a pretty cool way to learn. :)

--B

Daryl
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Post by Daryl » Tue Jan 04, 2011 9:50 pm

bduersch wrote:Totally agree... I'd go so far as to suggest that understanding the dynamics of mic + speaker interaction GREATLY HELPS when using IR's... to be able to understand the freq. response curves of both different mics and different speakers, to understand the impact of proximity effect + on/off-axis placement, to understand positioning against cone vs. cap... all of them greatly help when picking the right IR for the job.

And for that (back to the OP) the shavering method is a pretty cool way to learn. :)

--B
Yeah...That totally makes sense. Since you are trying to get the sound of a real mic'd situation anyway, it makes perfect sense that it would be invaluable for getting the right IR's. Same with using amp modelers and effects modelers. It helps to know what the real thing does in order to get it to sound just right. I've seen your rig/rigs and you've got some totally killer gear. I watched the clips you posted. You got some tasty tones and a good solid fundamental to your sounds. So you know your stuff for sure. Rock on, bro...
?The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination.?-Albert Einstein

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