Who need an post module EQ to nail his tone?

[Mike P]

Another thing.... while I do feel that dialing more treble in on an amp sounds more natural than using post EQ, I think we can all accept the fact that some players make EQ a definite part of their tone. VH with his MXR 6 band or GE-10.. Lynch STILL using that GE-10 on his board. Prior to the AFD amp, Slash was still using EQ pedals to boost the mids in his leads during the Use your Illusion stuff (not according to me, according to gear sites), Michel Shenker used to use the cock'ed wah. That is a form of EQ.. it works.

I declare this argument a tie! lol 8)

1. Dial in the best tone you can get from your amp ( the beauty of re-amping really if you want to go back and do it)

2. Apply EQ sparingly where you might need it.

3. As long as the artist is happy and people tell you the finished product kicks ***, your job is done.

4. Good luck getting killer REAL acoustic drum sounds from scratch without some EQ. That click on the kick drum doesn't just come from proper mic placement, microphones, and environment.

5. Nobody's recordings on here will be able to match Mike P's because A. his gear is better than most people's, B. he has experience.

Reamping is a cop-out, IMO. Dial it in, make a decision and go.

As for drums, if you use the "right" mics and mic pre's (again, a properly equipped studio) AND the right drums (Tama or Yamaha Oaks, for example) and the "right" heads, you can get away with very little EQing.

That said, drums are different than guitars, IMO. It's pretty easy to capture a great tone and roll with it. Bass, too. Drums require a little more work at times because they're the foundation upon which a mix is built. But once the drums are dialed in, it's pretty easy to lay just about anything on top with little to no EQ.

Unless of course, you're making a "Creative" choice. But unless you're talking about a producer whose name rhymes with Moe Parcheesi, the majority of us go for general production techniques.

 

[Jaded Faith]

The definition of insanity via Albert Einstein:

"Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

The definition of insanity via myself:

"The continuation of this thread."

This discussion is akin to a dog chasing his tail. Each argument is based on "facts" that are subjective for each party involved. There are many paths to a great recording and what's considered great is completely up to each and every one of us to decide. What excites one listener may make another cringe. That's the beauty of music: it's ability to evoke emotions.

A claim to not be judging isn't valid either. Judging is defined as:

v.tr.
- To determine or declare after consideration or deliberation.
- To condemn.

v.intr.
- To form an opinion or evaluation.

To continually condemn others for having formed opinions based on personal experiences that contradict one's own is judging. To continually do it in an aggressively cyclical manner on a topic which is subjective is insane. To not even realize it's being viewed by many as aggressive or abrasive is unfortunate.

 

[ctgblue]

I've always preferred a really "scooped" tone on heavy rhythm stuff, I've never had any amp, including the MTS and all the modules I have, that gave me 'exactly' what I wanted. My Pitbull UL came close with the onboard 6 band.
So I've been mixing in some outboard EQ to get the extra mid cut I like.
Problem with the MTS is that I cannot get the mix from the loop to make any diffeence in the sound. It's very frustrating. I also wish it had an effects loop button on the footswitch (like 90% of my other amps did). Because I want some mids back on solo work.
All my other amps have been easy to EQ through the parallel loop, but not this one.
So I'll keep trying.

 

[rblyn]

The definition of insanity via Albert Einstein:

"Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

The definition of insanity via myself:

"The continuation of this thread."

This discussion is akin to a dog chasing his tail. Each argument is based on "facts" that are subjective for each party involved. There are many paths to a great recording and what's considered great is completely up to each and every one of us to decide. What excites one listener may make another cringe. That's the beauty of music: it's ability to evoke emotions.

A claim to not be judging isn't valid either. Judging is defined as:

v.tr.
- To determine or declare after consideration or deliberation.
- To condemn.

v.intr.
- To form an opinion or evaluation.

To continually condemn others for having formed opinions based on personal experiences that contradict one's own is judging. To continually do it in an aggressively cyclical manner on a topic which is subjective is insane. To not even realize it's being viewed by many as aggressive or abrasive is unfortunate.

Amen to this Rob....

 

[Mike P]

The definition of insanity via Albert Einstein:

"Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

The definition of insanity via myself:

"The continuation of this thread."

This discussion is akin to a dog chasing his tail. Each argument is based on "facts" that are subjective for each party involved. There are many paths to a great recording and what's considered great is completely up to each and every one of us to decide. What excites one listener may make another cringe. That's the beauty of music: it's ability to evoke emotions.

A claim to not be judging isn't valid either. Judging is defined as:

v.tr.
- To determine or declare after consideration or deliberation.
- To condemn.

v.intr.
- To form an opinion or evaluation.

To continually condemn others for having formed opinions based on personal experiences that contradict one's own is judging. To continually do it in an aggressively cyclical manner on a topic which is subjective is insane. To not even realize it's being viewed by many as aggressive or abrasive is unfortunate.

And yet, you have no problem judging anyone participating in this thread with this quote, right?

:roll:

20 years, I moved to Los Angeles. I had been recording for about 6 years, yet my recording never sounded even close to a commercial release. Once I moved here, I hooked up with numerous musicians and producers including Steve Dudas, Ryan Dorn, Andy Johns, Kevin Valentine and way too many to list.

The first thing that each and every one of them told me was what I was doing: The bass wasn't the right frequencies, the kick was in the wrong place, the guitars were this, the vocals were that, the writing was too dated, and on and on and on.

Instead of taking "offense" to their points, I worked my *** off and took every piece of advice available. I was out to dinner with Joe Barresi a few years ago and picked his brain. I know many extremely successful composer/producers that pay money for producing workshops, just to learn more.

All I've tried to do, since the day I joined this forum, is to help people. You and a few others may not like my "internet delivery", but it is what it is. If you or a few others are going to be offended that delivery, so be it.

But let's make one thing clear: Everyone's experiences are NOT equal. We're NOT all on the same playing field. If that were so, there would be no reason for a forum like this or any number of the music and recording related forums that exist in great numbers on the internet.

I'm happy to help out anyone in this forum and have done so on several occasions. But I can't control those who become "offended" by my posts and that has never been my intent.

 

[Kapo_Polenton]

Essentially what I do is capture and retain the helpful parts of MikeP's posts and disregard anything that is offensive :wink: Doesn't bug me one bit. In fact, I get a kick out of it.. we do have to remember that this is the internet. Take everything with a grain of salt. Just because someone says XYZ module or amp is the best in the world doesn't mean it will be for me. It does help to know that XYZ amp gets great reviews when you are looking though.

 

[crankyrayhanky]

Too many talented people in here not making music

btw, where can I get this XYZ module? Does it bring the Brooootz?

 

[Julia]

Okay, you want to know about EQ?

* your guitar's wood is EQ
* your guitar's pickups are EQ
* your strings are EQ
* your cable is EQ
* the capacitors, resistors, and tubes in your amp are EQ
* your amp's tranformer is EQ
* the settings on your amp/preamp are EQ
* your speaker cabinet is EQ
* your speakers are EQ
* the room in which you are playing is EQ
* the direction in which the speaker cab is facing is EQ
* the volume at which you can play is perceived EQ due to loudness-contour curves.
* when you record your mic/mic position/mic pre/channel strip/ are EQ

See how much EQ is already applied? So what is an EQ pedal in the grand scheme of things? EQ gets applied anyway on a recording. It's all EQ.

 

[Graham Pearson]

Hmm, looks like we've thrashed the subject of EQs.

Anybody want to discuss the inventive use of COMPRESSION? I'm getting a great Robben Ford tone by coupling an EQ with a compressor.

 

[crankyrayhanky]

^I hereby give you 2 life sentences, 1 each for the use of eq & compression

 

[Graham Pearson]

Oh no, crankyrayhanky, you caught me.

I guess I'll now have to forfeit my "the only person in the world using a piece of gear for what it's meant for award".

 

[m0jo]

Okay, you want to know about EQ?

* your guitar's wood is EQ
* your guitar's pickups are EQ
* your strings are EQ
* your cable is EQ
* the capacitors, resistors, and tubes in your amp are EQ
* your amp's tranformer is EQ
* the settings on your amp/preamp are EQ
* your speaker cabinet is EQ
* your speakers are EQ
* the room in which you are playing is EQ
* the direction in which the speaker cab is facing is EQ
* the volume at which you can play is perceived EQ due to loudness-contour curves.
* when you record your mic/mic position/mic pre/channel strip/ are EQ

See how much EQ is already applied? So what is an EQ pedal in the grand scheme of things? EQ gets applied anyway on a recording. It's all EQ.

If you want to go there you can add:
- the air pressure at where you're playing
- the voltage out of the socket at any given time while you're playing
- all the other gear sucking down that voltage
- the warmth of your guitar
- the moisture in your speaker cones
etc etc etc

 

[djd100]

At long last we finally agree on something Mike ("I could never be an audio engineer or producer for anyone other than myself").

Since you only work with yourself you can do it your way as you're the composer, artist, producer etc all in one with your own studio. I honestly commend you for your purist attitudes (I'd have loved to have had the luxury at times, believe me!).

In the real world where the studio can cost well over $100 an hour, union talent can be getting paid by the track/hour, and any overtime is budget killing, one has to be fast and good in any studio with whatever gear is available at the time (assuming reasonably decent pro equipment in a pro studio etc).

Your clips sound great, but IMHO no better than others done by knowledgeable engineers with decent gear and recording environments (there simply is no "best"). At some point distorted guitars are just distorted guitars, and although gear hounds love to obsess about these things they don't really effect the bottom line to a meaningful degree (it's still all about the artist's image, plus the song and performance).

For any others out there who aren't all that in one with your own studio you'd better learn some skills with EQ if you want to have a audio engineering career. Often you won't have time to change amps, guitars, pups etc trying to get a workable sound, so you'll have learn to make it work fast with whatever you have on hand. After the initial tracking sessions the sound requirements often change as arrangements and instrumentation are changed, so you again have to make changes fast, often without the time required to reamp let alone retrack. Believe it or not, your call?

Since I was so politely asked, some of my pre semi-retirement credits include a bunch of older artists you young metal heads will likely never have heard of (various roles; first, second, mix, mastering, producer, session player etc), like Asleep At The Wheel, Robben/Mark/Pat Ford, Steel Breeze, Sarah Mclaughlin, David Lindly, Delbert McClinton, Montrose, Pierre LaRue, Jean Paul Barthe, JJ Cale, Queen Ida, Taj Mahal, Tempest, Al Rapone, Tom Fogerty, Driver, Tight Squeeze, Joyride, Yankee, BTG, Sopwith Camel, MC Hammer, Too Short, NFL, Windham Hill, Zoetrope, Touchstone, Interscope, Sonnet blah blah blah...

I'm old fashioned so I don't have a web site for advertisement, rather I pick up the phone and call around when need be, though I prefer just playing to engineering/producing these days (getting old I guess?).

Ciao...

Thanks and I completely agree. I could never be an audio engineer or producer for anyone other than myself.

But I'm sure you guys didn't need me to tell you that!

 

[Mattfig]

Okay, you want to know about EQ?

* your guitar's wood is EQ
* your guitar's pickups are EQ
* your strings are EQ
* your cable is EQ
* the capacitors, resistors, and tubes in your amp are EQ
* your amp's tranformer is EQ
* the settings on your amp/preamp are EQ
* your speaker cabinet is EQ
* your speakers are EQ
* the room in which you are playing is EQ
* the direction in which the speaker cab is facing is EQ
* the volume at which you can play is perceived EQ due to loudness-contour curves.
* when you record your mic/mic position/mic pre/channel strip/ are EQ

See how much EQ is already applied? So what is an EQ pedal in the grand scheme of things? EQ gets applied anyway on a recording. It's all EQ.

I feel mislead Julia...I read your post and took my fave guitar to a tech and asked for a little 2k extra outta my mahogany...He laughed....Now I feel dumb.

 

[crankyrayhanky]

you know what helped my tone? a complete rewiring, new pots/swithces and installed BK pickups- everything I plug my guitar in now sounds beautiful. A lot of current production model guitars have inefficient (cheap) wiring & pots

I could have gotten lost on a 31 band eq, but going to the source is the first move

 

[Graham Pearson]

I feel mislead Julia...I read your post and took my fave guitar to a tech and asked for a little 2k extra outta my mahogany...He laughed....Now I feel dumb.

Don't feel bad Mattfig, I took my guitar to the same tech and it came back with a 15-band EQ installed in it. Irony is, this guitar used to belong to Mike P.

 

[Mattfig]

you know what helped my tone? a complete rewiring, new pots/swithces and installed BK pickups- everything I plug my guitar in now sounds beautiful. A lot of current production model guitars have inefficient (cheap) wiring & pots

I could have gotten lost on a 31 band eq, but going to the source is the first move

Totally agree...All my guitars now have custom pickups as I almost never completely like the stock ones although I have on rare occasions...

A set of fresh strings will give you back the high end as well...That's the LAST place to be lazy when recording...I see it all the time...Then they ask for "shimmer" on the recorded tracks...

My Pro Q will stay forever since it is made to be very subtle...It can notch out an off harmonic or fill in some specific mids...I almost always bypass it when recording but there are occasions when I don't...

You guys are totally right in the sense that the people who shouldn't be using EQs are often compensating for mistakes in the original chain...A great guitar, amp, and cables won't need anything...But not everyone has great stuff nor can they afford it...That's where EQs are best used...100 bucks for an MXR 10 band or 1800 for a nice Les Paul and god knows how much for the amp of your dreams...Easy call...

 

[m0jo]

you know what helped my tone? a complete rewiring, new pots/swithces and installed BK pickups- everything I plug my guitar in now sounds beautiful. A lot of current production model guitars have inefficient (cheap) wiring & pots

I could have gotten lost on a 31 band eq, but going to the source is the first move

Totally agree...All my guitars now have custom pickups as I almost never completely like the stock ones although I have on rare occasions...

A set of fresh strings will give you back the high end as well...That's the LAST place to be lazy when recording...I see it all the time...Then they ask for "shimmer" on the recorded tracks...

My Pro Q will stay forever since it is made to be very subtle...It can notch out an off harmonic or fill in some specific mids...I almost always bypass it when recording but there are occasions when I don't...

You guys are totally right in the sense that the people who shouldn't be using EQs are often compensating for mistakes in the original chain...A great guitar, amp, and cables won't need anything...But not everyone has great stuff nor can they afford it...That's where EQs are best used...100 bucks for an MXR 10 band or 1800 for a nice Les Paul and god knows how much for the amp of your dreams...Easy call...

Yes!! Don't forget the source!
If you're looking towards more "definition" or high end, you can totally remove the tone pot too. Another less invasive thing is picks, you can laugh but my tone has become much better since I switched from Dunlop Tortex to Ultex picks .. (1.0mm).

But I don't like recording with fresh strings (as in, put on that day). They tend to be a tad too harsh when they haven't been worked in yet. (for me that is, this could be because of the other tweaks I've done that bring out that same freq. range).

Modded modules also are much more defined in that range, never a dull moment with mods! :lol:

 

[djd100]

All good advice, and don't forget you can change the volume pot too for more upper mids, say up to 1M for high output passive HB's, or up to 500K for passive high output single-coils, though personally I've found those values a bit harsh, but of course it all depends on the rest of the chain.

you know what helped my tone? a complete rewiring, new pots/swithces and installed BK pickups- everything I plug my guitar in now sounds beautiful. A lot of current production model guitars have inefficient (cheap) wiring & pots

I could have gotten lost on a 31 band eq, but going to the source is the first move

Totally agree...All my guitars now have custom pickups as I almost never completely like the stock ones although I have on rare occasions...

A set of fresh strings will give you back the high end as well...That's the LAST place to be lazy when recording...I see it all the time...Then they ask for "shimmer" on the recorded tracks...

My Pro Q will stay forever since it is made to be very subtle...It can notch out an off harmonic or fill in some specific mids...I almost always bypass it when recording but there are occasions when I don't...

You guys are totally right in the sense that the people who shouldn't be using EQs are often compensating for mistakes in the original chain...A great guitar, amp, and cables won't need anything...But not everyone has great stuff nor can they afford it...That's where EQs are best used...100 bucks for an MXR 10 band or 1800 for a nice Les Paul and god knows how much for the amp of your dreams...Easy call...

Yes!! Don't forget the source!
If you're looking towards more "definition" or high end, you can totally remove the tone pot too. Another less invasive thing is picks, you can laugh but my tone has become much better since I switched from Dunlop Tortex to Ultex picks .. (1.0mm).

But I don't like recording with fresh strings (as in, put on that day). They tend to be a tad too harsh when they haven't been worked in yet. (for me that is, this could be because of the other tweaks I've done that bring out that same freq. range).

Modded modules also are much more defined in that range, never a dull moment with mods! :lol:

 

[Mattfig]

I feel mislead Julia...I read your post and took my fave guitar to a tech and asked for a little 2k extra outta my mahogany...He laughed....Now I feel dumb.

Don't feel bad Mattfig, I took my guitar to the same tech and it came back with a 15-band EQ installed in it. Irony is, this guitar used to belong to Mike P.

That was good! :lol: :lol: